Author Topic: Any LnL Tactical gurus out there?  (Read 293 times)

judgedredd

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on: November 01, 2022, 07:26:45 AM
I have a bit of a problem "getting" the To Hit check for ordinance weapons. Sorry - this is a LONG post.

As I've mentioned in another thread, the Point Blank:V is for Victory game seems to incorporate many of the LnL Tactical rules - and the To Hit is one of them. I'm not saying the exactly mimic the LnL Tactical rules - 'cos I can't remember them specifically - but I remember a To Hit check in the Tactical games and I always really didn't like playing games where ordinance (tanks/weapons).

Anyway - to the point.

I have pointed out and Sean the designer has admitted that the Player Aid Card is wrong - or at least not clear.

In the PB:VifV game,  the rule for an ordinance To Hit check is
Quote
Determine TH#/Penetration(AFV) from unit's ordinance bar and range
Adjust TH based on Modifiers
2d6 check =< adjusted TH# is a hit

The bits in bold are the bits I pointed out to Sean that may be wrong - as it seemed the modifier values should be applied on the  2d6 check and NOT the TH#. My reasoning for thinking that was the modifiers seemed to almost guarantee a hit - I have to say that when I was thinking this, I was thinking about my poor soldiers in the house who were going to get mullered because they were hit - because the TH# seemed to increase unfairly and almost guarantee a hit against a 2d6 roll...but I was forgetting that the chance to hit might be high and that the soldiers may still survive because there's a further damage check to be made.

So the modifiers are
Quote
Firing at moving/melee inf +1
Firing through degraded terrain +1
Turret firing outside CA +1
Changing Covered Arc +2
Target terrain +x (terrain modifier)
Firing ordinance unit is marked with smoke +1
Leadership -1
Firing while buttoned +1
Target concealed (not spotted) +2
AFV during Assault Fire +2

So an example of how I thought the To Hit check was unfair...

Because the check on the Player Aid Card  says (and it's not clearer in the manual) Adjust TH based on modifiers an attack by a M4A1 Sherman at medium range firing at Infantry marked as moving in a strong building would be 12
M4A1 TH value = 7
Moving infantry = +1
Target's terrain = +4

Performing that check against a 2d6 roll for the defender is a guaranteed hit. It also didn't make sense that the Leadership modifier of -1 would reduce the TH of the vehicle.

So - that's why I thought the modifiers shouldn't have been applied to the TH of ordinance - and as I said, Sean has confirmed that the modifiers are on the 2d6 check and not the TH value.

However - that has now come around and bit me in the arse - making it high on impossible to to hit.

Taking my same example above, the TH check of the M4A1 has come down from a 7 modified to a 12, to a 7 modified to a 2.

Performing a 2d6 check and adding +5 for the modifiers means if it's anything other than 2, the TH check fails.


So I was thinking about it and looking at the modifiers and it seems to me that some of the modifiers shouldn't apply to the To Hit check but should be applied to the Damage Check - at least the Terrain Modifier and possibly even the concealment modifier.

It makes sense to me that hitting the target is different to causing damage...so a building should be easy to hit - and yet the modifier is against the TH. I'm arguing that the To Hit should not be modified by the building (or any terrain) defence modifier or the concealment modifier

So in the above example again - the TH check of the M4A1 goes from 7 to 6 (the 2d6 check gets a +1 for movement - difficult to hit a moving target) -  a much better chance of scoring a hit...however, as I'm suggesting that the Damage Check instead of being a single d6 roll, should get the terrain modifier and the concealment modifier (and why not - they're in a building and unspotted).

So a TH of 6 stands a reasonable chance (as opposed to NO chance) but the defenders get +4 (terrain) added to their damage check.

Just spit balling. I'm sick of my M4A1 not getting a chance to cause any damage at all.

Anyone see the modifiers as inappropriate as well? And I'm specifically targeting people who play LnL Tactical and have knowledge of the system. What's your thoughts on a TH standing virtually no chance of making a hit?

I don't know...maybe it's 'cos I'm fed up of wasting attacks on what should be a very powerful asset because I know it's not even going to get a chance to cause damage because the modifiers and 2d6 are stacked way against the massive gun.


Conversely,  the machine guns of the tank do not suffer this problem because there's no To Hit check for them...and that - really - is the source of my issue.

Answers on a postcard (or preferably here) please.

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bayonetbrant

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Reply #1 on: November 01, 2022, 07:47:48 AM
Let Vance wake up and he'll be able to square it all away for you

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Barthheart

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Reply #2 on: November 01, 2022, 08:11:56 AM
For LnLT:
All modifiers are to the dice roll. You are trying to get that To-Hit number or less on 2d6. So, yes if all the modifiers add up to +5 then you will need a 2 to get a hit. Moving guys in a stone building are hard to hit. Yes, the building is easy to hit but you are not aiming at the building but the guys inside it.

Think of it this way: you are trying to hit an exact spot either on a wall to punch a hole exactly where the guys are passing by OR you are trying to put a shell through a window as the guys are passing by. Not at all easy with WWII equipment.

Once you DO get a hit though the guys are in a world of hurt because they only defend with a single d6 versus your d6+HE equivalent.

Hope that makes sense.

I had heard/seen in a prototype of the PB game that it’s combat was based on LnLT. If it still is then that is how it works.



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judgedredd

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Reply #3 on: November 01, 2022, 11:01:50 AM
Quote
Once you DO get a hit though the guys are in a world of hurt because they only defend with a single d6 versus your d6+HE equivalent.
That's why I was suggesting the To Hit was made easier but the damage check was made more difficult.

Thanks Vance. Yeah - I guess it makes sense. I've conflated hitting the building as opposed to the troops inside. I still like my version though....but I doubt I'm going to change LnL's tried and tested method of Ordinance attacks.

I can't attest to the specific details of the rules, but I definitely recognise many of the rules in this from LnL Tactical.

One thing they have "fixed" from the Tactical series is allowing rallying without a leader (cards have the Rally action that can be played on any unit)...so I'm thankful for that.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 04:48:37 PM by judgedredd »

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mcguire

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Reply #4 on: November 01, 2022, 04:19:10 PM
Let Vance wake up and he'll be able to square it all away for you

...

Geeze, Vance gets up way before I do.

"Man...knowing how to use the cards properly certainly changes how I play the game" -- judgedredd