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Author Topic: Collected "Cyrano on a Rant" thread  (Read 26564 times)

Cyrano

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There is likely a good game about colonialism somewhere out there, perhaps in the future.

It is to be stipulated that "1500" was never it.  I thought as much from its inception.

The theming issue could have been managed in a sentence rather than in a poorly-constructed, tendentious, and comically self-righteous lecture.  Borrowing from an old Conan O'Brien line, "good, good, I am glad we still live in a country where we boo Hitler."

The game would and should have come crashing down on its own merits.

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Silent Disapproval Robot

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You rang?

In other news, SDR made me look at the "1500" review.

Yes, made me.

He's a much poorer thinker than I gave him credit for and should stop.

I think very much goodest!


Never played 1500 as I didn't have any real interest in it.  Basing a game on the subject doesn't bother me in the slightest.  It's just a game.  Playing it won't retroactively go back and prevent history nor will it somehow normalize the topic and convince a bunch of nerds to go out and colonize anew (China and Nestle already seem to be doing a bang up job of that.)

As for good games on colonialism, I liked Pax Britannica back in the day.  I still fire up Vicky II on the PC from time to time.  I also fire up AGEOD's Pride of Nations but then I rediscover how long the turn processing takes and I shut it down again.






mirth

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There is likely a good game about colonialism somewhere out there, perhaps in the future.

It is to be stipulated that "1500" was never it.  I thought as much from its inception.

The theming issue could have been managed in a sentence rather than in a poorly-constructed, tendentious, and comically self-righteous lecture.  Borrowing from an old Conan O'Brien line, "good, good, I am glad we still live in a country where we boo Hitler."

The game would and should have come crashing down on its own merits.

I guess the bottom line is I don't care about the game or the review. I wasn't going to play the game or watch Marco's review. I did skip to the end for a few seconds and he was making some points about problems with the mechanics. Something along the lines of one or two lucky turns early on essentially assures you a win. That's hardly an uncommon criticism of CDGs.



Being able to Google shit better than your clients is a legit career skill.


Bison

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Of course it’s not a wargame but one of the most beloved euros in the BBG community is Puerto Rico. Clearly a game whose historical veneer is sanitized, i.e. colonists not slaves....the irony is historical accuracy is subjected to criticism not leveled against the same themes if sufficiently “hidden”. 








bayonetbrant

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Of course it’s not a wargame but one of the most beloved euros in the BBG community is Puerto Rico. Clearly a game whose historical veneer is sanitized, i.e. colonists not slaves....the irony is historical accuracy is subjected to criticism not leveled against the same themes if sufficiently “hidden”.


That one's been discussed quite a bit as a contrast to what happened with GMT's Scramble for Africa.
At this point, I'm not convinced that Puerto Rico ever gets reprinted.
Not sure if we specifically called it out in that thread, but we did bring it up on the podcast

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bayonetbrant

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It just was.

https://www.miniaturemarket.com/rio569.html


Yes, but that was at the press before the SfA blowup.


What'll be interesting is if the Eurogamers try to pass it off as somehow "ok" for Puerto Rico to still exist because it's not from a wargame company.

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Bison

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It just was.

https://www.miniaturemarket.com/rio569.html


Yes, but that was at the press before the SfA blowup.


What'll be interesting is if the Eurogamers try to pass it off as somehow "ok" for Puerto Rico to still exist because it's not from a wargame company.

I don’t think it will receive the same scrutiny. There is of course some discussion form time to time. However, I think overall the game is accepted by its fan base as an economic engine builder not tied to the historical roots of the theme. And it recently got a blinged out version printed which now sells for $$$$$ on the after market.


It’s similar to Five Tribes. Original game had a slave card which was replaced by a different card. Same intent and purpose but renaming it satisfied those upset by the original card. So no more fuss. Of course, no one bats an eye at the idea of assassination.

There is also a game called Mombasa were you are an investor buying and selling shares of companies exploiting the wealth of Africa during the colonization period. Again highly rated on BBG but the theme is not explicitly tied to colonial practices so little to no offense is raised. Even though you are clearly buying shares of trading companies in South Africa, Egypt, Kenya, and Senegal.



panzerde

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It’s similar to Five Tribes. Original game had a slave card which was replaced by a different card. Same intent and purpose but renaming it satisfied those upset by the original card. So no more fuss. Of course, no one bats an eye at the idea of assassination.

There is also a game called Mombasa were you are an investor buying and selling shares of companies exploiting the wealth of Africa during the colonization period. Again highly rated on BBG but the theme is not explicitly tied to colonial practices so little to no offense is raised. Even though you are clearly buying shares of trading companies in South Africa, Egypt, Kenya, and Senegal.

This is the thing, right? These people are okay with hiding the history. They aren't bothered as long as they don't have to look at it. Like, we can all pretend this didn't happen if we cover up the offensive bits.

Somehow, that's better.

I actually don't really like games.

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Bison

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Yeah unfortunately I think that’s part of today’s social reality. In the current discussion, it’s evident in the argument colonization would be “ok” in in sci-fi setting. The logic is twisted.



Staggerwing

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Time to stand up for alien aboriginal rights! Set the BEMs free!

Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?  -Voluspa


Adam

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What's ever more clear to me is that there are two diverging groups that are trying to lay claim to wargaming. Marco is firmly in the "gamer" camp. Gamers are more concerned with mechanics and aesthetics than history.  They want games that are quick, easy to play, and provide the "feel" of a period. The historical accuracy of the game, and what it can teach you about the period are entirely secondary...or tertiary...or just not even something to be considered.

The second camp are amateur historians who use games as a means of learning about the specifics of a period. They want their games to teach and illustrate - they want simulation. To this crowd, a game that is complicated, difficult to play, and even ugly is just fine, as long as it reflects the history being depicted accurately....

Well written piece.  I think it's not as simple as "gamer" versus "simulation."  The simulation that you describe is just one axis of the spectrum, one that I might label "military simulation."  The axis that I often find the most interesting is what I might label "psychological simulation," meaning does the game give me a better understanding of the decision making that was happening on that fateful battle or campaign.  While in certain circumstances, "military accuracy" may contribute to "psychological accuracy," in other cases it may hinder it.  I consider a game that helps me better understand a situation to be a successful "psychological simulation" even in cases in which the OOB isn't 100% correct or when the rules abstract away military simulation-level minutiae.  Because a mechanically and aesthetically pleasing game that gives a "feel" for a period may not allow people to develop a better understanding of the situation the game depicts, it would seem as though "psychological simulation" is yet another category to consider.



Bison

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Time to stand up for alien aboriginal rights! Set the BEMs free!

Preach, Comrade!



Bison

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Well written piece.  I think it's not as simple as "gamer" versus "simulation."  The simulation that you describe is just one axis of the spectrum, one that I might label "military simulation."  The axis that I often find the most interesting is what I might label "psychological simulation," meaning does the game give me a better understanding of the decision making that was happening on that fateful battle or campaign.  While in certain circumstances, "military accuracy" may contribute to "psychological accuracy," in other cases it may hinder it.  I consider a game that helps me better understand a situation to be a successful "psychological simulation" even in cases in which the OOB isn't 100% correct or when the rules abstract away military simulation-level minutiae.  Because a mechanically and aesthetically pleasing game that gives a "feel" for a period may not allow people to develop a better understanding of the situation the game depicts, it would seem as though "psychological simulation" is yet another category to consider.

I tend to favor games providing one or both of two characteristics which are firmly rooted in the decisions a player is compelled to make. First, to better understand the circumstances unpinning why the decisions that were actually made by military or political leaders. For me games present a venue to better understand history.  Reading a book is great but seeing forces and resources arrayed on the map gives whole new insights that are difficult to portray in words alone. Second, to understand my own decision making processes and how I develop options or potential solutions to overcome emerging threats, risks, or even unexpected success.



panzerde

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What's ever more clear to me is that there are two diverging groups that are trying to lay claim to wargaming. Marco is firmly in the "gamer" camp. Gamers are more concerned with mechanics and aesthetics than history.  They want games that are quick, easy to play, and provide the "feel" of a period. The historical accuracy of the game, and what it can teach you about the period are entirely secondary...or tertiary...or just not even something to be considered.

The second camp are amateur historians who use games as a means of learning about the specifics of a period. They want their games to teach and illustrate - they want simulation. To this crowd, a game that is complicated, difficult to play, and even ugly is just fine, as long as it reflects the history being depicted accurately....

Well written piece.  I think it's not as simple as "gamer" versus "simulation."  The simulation that you describe is just one axis of the spectrum, one that I might label "military simulation."  The axis that I often find the most interesting is what I might label "psychological simulation," meaning does the game give me a better understanding of the decision making that was happening on that fateful battle or campaign.  While in certain circumstances, "military accuracy" may contribute to "psychological accuracy," in other cases it may hinder it.  I consider a game that helps me better understand a situation to be a successful "psychological simulation" even in cases in which the OOB isn't 100% correct or when the rules abstract away military simulation-level minutiae.  Because a mechanically and aesthetically pleasing game that gives a "feel" for a period may not allow people to develop a better understanding of the situation the game depicts, it would seem as though "psychological simulation" is yet another category to consider.

I tend to call those "command simulations." Those types of games are exactly the kind of games I'm most interested in. I'm less interested in the game that, for example, accurately reflects firing by platoons during the War of Spanish Succession but doesn't consider at all the issues of command and control in a period where all messengers are on horses and the general has no staff to speak of. I can do without the accurate platoon firing mechanics, but I don't think you can really understand the period without understanding the command and control issues.

I'd actually say that the players who are primarily concerned with aesthetics and OOBs, or hardware, fall into the "gamer" category. I agree completely that what's most important about simulation is capturing the reasons why things happened the way they happened. Things like doctrine, C3I, training, and morale are more important (and interesting) than the specifics of an OOB or the range of a .50 caliber round. Those can't be ignored, but I think a game misses the point if those are the main focus.

I actually don't really like games.

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