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Author Topic: WW2 Stays Hot  (Read 6540 times)

ojsdad

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Reply #15 on: May 26, 2020, 06:03:47 PM
BTW, there is an old version of HIO2, called Arsenal of Democracy, that has a scenario called Doomsday, which is the war going hot between US/UK and USSR on 2 Oct 1945.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/42850/Arsenal_of_Democracy_A_Hearts_of_Iron_Game/

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bbmike

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Reply #16 on: May 26, 2020, 06:07:27 PM
I'll lob a shot at this.

1 Oct 1945.

I don't see Truman having any desire to start a war with Stalin.  There wasn't anything for the US to gain in doing so. 

Churchill didn't trust either Stalin or Communism.  But he knew without the US, support, he could not challenge Stalin.  He also had the issues with the different colonies clamoring for their independence, and knew that they would not support another war.  In fact, it could lead to open revolts.

On to of that, both the UK and US are democracies and capitalist and their people are ready to put down arms and get back to their civilian lives.

Stalin had a great desire to bring all of Europe under his control.  He also had an eye on Asia.  While he really didn't want to, perhaps he could strike a deal with Mao that would unite the two countries.  Whether he was able to or not, he would support Mao and the Chinese communists in taking control of China. 

Taking Korea, Western Europe and China would not take a great effort.  The closest that Korea had for an army was the communist army under Kim-Il Sung.  The Americans hadn't had time to get any troops into Korea yet.  The Japanese troops still there were a non-entity.  Europe was much the same.  The Germans were defeated, her army disbanded and were more focused on rebuilding their country.  France had an army, but were still trying to recover from four years of German occupation.  Same for Italy. 

His two biggest worries were 1) The US had detonated two atomic weapons against Japan, destroying two cities.  The USSR had a strong air force, but if a single bomber got through, Moscow, or any other Soviet city could be quickly destroyed.  His other issue was that he had little hope of being able to take either Japan of England.  The Soviet navy could not, at this time, challenge either the Royal Navy or the US Navy, little lone their combined force.  But with an army of over 20 million and his economy geared to support the war, the Americans and British wouldn't be able to return to Europe or eastern mainland Asia.  Plus, the British and American people would not have the stomach to fight another war. 

He ordered his armies to attack on Oct 10th.

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BanzaiCat

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Reply #17 on: May 26, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
Interesting note, that the USSR actually entered into talks with Germany to join the Axis in 1940. It didn't last long at all (I think it was Moltov listing ridiculous demands that the Nazi government never would acquiesce to), plus the two dynamically opposed political viewpoints. Another interesting 'what if' is, what if the USSR joined the Axis. Heh...

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bob48

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Reply #18 on: May 26, 2020, 06:48:32 PM
The other wild card is if Hitler had managed to talk Franco into joining the axis.

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ojsdad

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Reply #19 on: May 26, 2020, 07:02:44 PM
Or if Hitler hadn't attacked Stalin in '41, and instead threw more against the British in Africa/Middle East.  Could he have then talked Turkey in joining. 

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BanzaiCat

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Reply #20 on: May 26, 2020, 07:47:30 PM
Or if Hitler hadn't attacked Stalin in '41, and instead threw more against the British in Africa/Middle East.  Could he have then talked Turkey in joining.

Fortunately Hitler only saw North Africa as an insignificant theatre. Had he pushed the Spanish and taken Gibraltar and Malta, the Axis would have been able to ferry as many supplies as they'd want across the Med.

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bob48

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Reply #21 on: May 27, 2020, 06:04:56 AM
One of the scenario's in the 'Spanish Civil War' game I have by GMT is a 'What If' operation Felix had happened. I intend to try it out once I've finished a few games of my new ACW stuff.

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JasonPratt

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Reply #22 on: May 27, 2020, 01:01:18 PM
Note: this thread was not entirely what I expected from the title...  ;)

I've been posting up an epic chronological re-sorting of Viktor Suvorov's Icebreaker Thesis (since his two English books on the topic aren't sorted chronologically very well, which makes his theory harder to analyze), over in the prior forum, for the past several months (as some of you may already know). So I can drop in some points relevant from that thesis.

At VE Day, Stalin has the following situational pros and cons:

Pros.) He has a stupidly large and very well equipped army, arguably better in its quality than what the Western Allies are fielding. (The Nazis certainly thought so.) And Stalin has been aiming to take over Germany and thence Europe (and then the world, mua ha ha ha haaaa) since before Stalin even got control of Lenin's power in the late 20s. So, he has the motivation to keep going. But his military's size and quality, and his experienced higher officers, are the only things he currently has in his favor.

Cons.) His stupidly large army has a dangerously high proportion of very green troops right now, for various reasons. (Something the Nazis were also aware of.) The Western allies have a much higher proportion of veterans, using equipment not much worse (if any) than his, and they'd be on the defensive which would mitigate his numerical advantages. (Presumably the pickups of German troops and equipment from either side would be about equal.) Also, Stalin won't be able to catch them out of position in a surprise blitzkrieg, which has been his overarching grand strategy for literally decades in preparation, and which he's certainly still thinking about because he quickly sends a large blitz operation over to Mongolia again (larger than his first blitz op in August 1939) to start picking up much easier property-and-means-of-production in China and South-east Asia. (Not so much where the Japanese are still defending.)

He does have more backfield to trade for time on the defensive, if Patton (for example) decides to attack, but that isn't the same as going on the offensive. And even then, the defensive characteristics of his backfield have been largely ruined, not only by years of East Front war, but also by Stalin himself starting in September 1939.

Relatedly, his logistic support in western Russia is a mess (after so many years of war), and moreso in the Eastern Europe border nations he has recently overrun, where he hasn't even had some time to start trying to repair it.

Moreover, Stalin badly needs to shift troops back to being workers again for a protracted period. On June 21st, 1941, Stalin had been about to fatally cripple the Soviet Union with too many troops mobilized to do any reasonable amount of harvesting (after two years of limited harvests in mobilization) -- the Soviet Union was about to starve to death (as an organized government anyway) unless he either went somewhere to get more food and perishable resources, or else unless suddenly he had a whole lot less mouths to feed one way or another. Starting one day later, the latter option happened. ;) But now he's in a similar situation and the rest of Europe is in no position to loot food from to feed his armies (and then the rest of his workers). Which also explains why he was more willing to shift military ops over to his eastern regions: easier and more profitable looting over there, for the moment.

Overall, not only does a continuation of operations into the rest of Europe look dicey as hell, and risking a potentially fatal counter-thrust (or pre-emptive thrust) by the western Allies if they feel provoked, but even if he succeeded he might face serious revolution in his backfield from being unable to feed and supply his people (and his troops) by looting Europe, assuming (as would have seemed probable) that the western armies would have been able to at least protect their own food and short-term supply sources: the only good supply of such things in the area right then. (At VE-Day the nukes haven't been dropped yet, but he knows from his intelligence services they're in development and that potential capability would factor, too.) And his risk of his government collapsing into a new Civil War isn't much better if he stays too mobilized up on the border without doing anything.

But if he stands down enough to send his troops somewhere else to loot while his other troops demobilize back into production and other essentials short-term production, then he runs the risk of facing settled and alert defenses later which he'd be unable to surprise-blitz. But he can't really do that anyway, anymore, in the short run either, so his best shot is to play for time, agitate his neighbors internally, and watch for opportunities. Thus setting up the early Cold War.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 01:04:29 PM by JasonPratt »