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Author Topic: Invasion: Malta  (Read 3415 times)

JudgeDredd

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Reply #15 on: July 16, 2024, 03:42:30 PM
There is one other awful thing about this...counter organisation.

Because the Allied troops have no formation colour, they are all white (mostly) and governed by the sector they're in.

This means organising them is a nightmare. I've got a couple of babies with a few formations in them, identified by the small worrying at the top of the counter...but a large bag of counter which are just white counters.

A bit of a pita tbh

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bob48

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Reply #16 on: July 16, 2024, 04:01:06 PM
Can they not be bagged in accordance with brigade area set-up?

I see that a lot of the units are AA and coastal arty.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 04:04:23 PM by bob48 »

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #17 on: July 16, 2024, 04:10:59 PM
I've got 2 bags with the light AA and the other with the heavy AA.

I haven't setup the game yet so something may show up.

But I have organised the Leros scenario...and most of the units came out of one bag...but that had alot of units in it and there's no proper identification

Example...they have unit IDs...but they're all white in the middle. They aren't labelled as Northern or Southern etc.

I can't see anyway to bag them in an organised way

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #18 on: July 16, 2024, 04:11:43 PM
The Leros map and counters ready to place

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #19 on: July 16, 2024, 04:14:18 PM
This is the setup for Leros...you can see there's no real way of organising these. Not without having hundreds of baggies for little groups of units

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bob48

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Reply #20 on: July 16, 2024, 05:01:43 PM
Maybe a method will present itself eventually. Also, perhaps using counter trays rather than bags would help to sort them out in a more ergonomic way?

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #21 on: July 17, 2024, 03:44:32 AM
Maybe something will show up...I doubt it from my experience of popping and clipping. I took some time to look at the potential storage options whilst I was clipping - trying to sort as I clipped.

Germans and Italians were fine - though there is a rather full bag of "white" formation counters (Army assets I think they're described as - not belonging to a particular formation).

As for trays - I'm fine with baggies. I have loads. Trays - I feel I'd need too many to go in the box. I estimate there's space for 2 trays in the box.

It might not be too bad if the Leros counters were separate from the Malta counters - and they might be, which would help. But I don't think they are. I think the Leros counters are also used in the Malta scenarios.

It would also assist if the Allied counters had their respective sectors printed on them - but they don't.

It took me about an hour to complete the setup cards. Of that time, it took me 15 minutes to complete the German setup card and the rest to complete the Allied setup card.

I basically had to empty the "white formation" counters out, sort them into their respective types and then look through those smaller sets in order to get the correct units. So sorting like that is an option, but you're looking at maybe 8 more baggies - and having too many baggies with units sprawled through them presents their own issues I think.

Another example is Leros. I have 2 fairly large bags of AA - one holding Light AA and the other holding Heavy AA. I had to empty out the Light AA bag and then try and find 6 specific units out of the large amount in there. I did think about splitting them into their values - creating smaller bags but again, you end up with LOTS of baggies.

Nah - the only way I could see efficiently storing these counters is the Allied counters having sectors on them so you know where they are and where they go. The setup cards would have to be modified too...The Leros one has 3 command chits - North, East and South. The setup card shows Group A and Group B - nothing about what sector they belong to. The hex they are put in will determine that...but if the setup card was organised right and the counters had the sectors on them, it would work the same as most other games.

Big post about a small problem. It's not a rant. I'm not pissed about it. It's just a big post 'cos of explaining what I'm seeing, the difficutlies that raises and the potential solution.

It's on the table now. I'm looking forward to firing through the Leros scenario.

neach-gleidhidh na h-Alba


bob48

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Reply #22 on: July 17, 2024, 10:12:28 AM
Hope that doesn't spoil it for you. Are there many allied unit counters used by both games, or can they be segregated?

Anyroadup - I'm looking forwards to your thoughts on the game. Still no news on the Gallipoli game as yet. I could do with something to cheer me up as I have contrived to break the little toe on my right foot. :-((

“O Lord God, let me not be disgraced in my old days.”

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #23 on: July 17, 2024, 11:32:59 AM
I honestly can't see a way to segregate them...the main issue is there's no identifiers on counters.

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #24 on: July 18, 2024, 03:25:45 AM
Just another update on the documentation.

Having finished the rules, I can say they were well written but they are most definitely not designed to be used for reference because there's literally nothing to assist you in finding what you want when you want it. The Table of Contents is basic and there is no Index as mentioned previously. I do not understand how you are meant to flip to the manual to find a rule.

A clear example of this is 15.0 Airborne Operations. I read this bit last night again (so it's fresh in my head) in preparation for my Leros scenario. In 15.3 Paradrop Unit Placement and specifically 15.34 it mentions paradrop units come under AA fire but there is absolutely NO reference to where the AA rules are in the manual. Unsurprisingly, the Table of Contents has NO mention of the AA procedure either.

Turns out the AA procedure is actually hidden under 11.0 Air Units and more specifically 11.3.

Contrarily, there are mentions, sporadically, of other related rules in other sections. Again, looking at 15.3 Paradrop Unit Placement and specifically 15.31 it mentions paradrop units having Drift and references the rule 15.4...which (if I wanted to be picky) wasn't required because it's on the same page. But - better presented than not.

I held off writing this this morning until I checked the Sequence of Play Player Aid Card, in case the rules references are specifically mentioned in the player aid - and they're not and again, more infuriatingly, some rules are referenced and others are omitted.

All sounds negative. That's because the rules, specifically from a references perspective, are poor. The actual manual itself, in terms of explaining stuff, is great. It's easy to understand and well written and organised. But as a reference, it's going to be a challenge.

But I've got a game to play.

Legion Games - you absolutely need to up your game where manuals are concerned and a sequence of play should try and reference rules to assist the players. Rules should be able to be referenced easily and that could easily be sorted with an index.

Having said all that - I remember a wee game called Fields of Fire that had a gawd awful manual and made a fairly easy game seem like the most complicated thing you've ever come across - and I've heard have put alot of people off buying the game. The rules may as well have been written in binary code. But that turned out to be my first choice Desert Island Game

So - there's hope.

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #25 on: July 21, 2024, 02:34:54 PM
Well - turns out there's no hope. Or none that I can see right now.

I performed the first part of the first step of the Leros campaign and found it very confusing ans stressful.

I've read the rules in their entirety. I've also re-read (twice) the rules on the invasion (16 - Naval Operations) along with the special scenario rules for Leros for quite some time before I decided to play it out and see how it worked, because it wasn't becoming obvious to me how it comes about even given how many times I'd read the Naval Operations process.

After completing that one step, I just was not at all convinced I'd got it right. The whole 16 Naval Operations section (16.1 Naval Transport Phase, 16.2 Convoys and 16.3 Amphibious Invasion) was confusing in places and misleading in others.

It mentions moving convoy units to the Delayed Box in the invasion zone if they are delayed on the table - but there are no Delayed Boxes on Leros. So I'm left wondering what I should do.

The Amphibious Invasion phase mentions Bombardment and saying Coastal and Light AA units can bombard...but 10.27 says Ant-aircraft can't bombard and then says only Light AA units can "attack in combat" - is "attack in combat" the same as bombardment, as specified in 16.33c? Don't know (though I suspect so - but gamers hate ambiguity (or at least I do)).

Finally there's the problem of no index. It's woeful to try and play this game without an index. You are constantly looking up rules and without an index, it means a computer being on nearby to help search.

In my invasion, two stacks of German units in two different landing hexes were marked as Disrupted. I couldn't remember the specifics of the effects of disruption. Try finding it without an index or a computer. I did load the manual up on my PC to find it - it's under 3.0 Basic Concepts. There are 53 references for DISRUPTED and 16 for DISRUPTION.

I'm currently debating whether to keep going and muddle through, junk until a later date (maybe they'll produce an online manual with an index so I can print it off) or just bite the bullet and sell it.

I think I'll leave it there for the rest of this week and see if I can't get through it - I'm on holiday from Friday for 10 days - maybe the time away will help. I'll take the manual and re-read it.

However - even if I re-read the manual and certain bits became clear, I'm still going to struggle witout an index. Rules need to be referenced by me...my memory simply won't hold rules in my head, specifically nuances. I need an index.

So lesson learned. I will never buy a game with a manual that doesn't have an index.

neach-gleidhidh na h-Alba


bob48

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Reply #26 on: July 21, 2024, 02:38:24 PM
What a shame - it looks so interesting. I can't see much help in the BGG forums either.

“O Lord God, let me not be disgraced in my old days.”

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JudgeDredd

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Reply #27 on: July 21, 2024, 03:06:33 PM
No - it seems quiet.

It is a shame. I'm going to leave it in place until I get back from holiday and try again though. I'm up in the Lake Distrcit and the Isle of Skye - so I'll have plenty of time to read.  ;D

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bayonetbrant

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Reply #28 on: July 21, 2024, 03:09:37 PM
there is an errata doc linked to the CSW forum, if that helps at all


https://khybergames.com/legionwargames/docs/MAL_errata_6-1-2024.pdf


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JudgeDredd

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Reply #29 on: July 21, 2024, 04:12:58 PM
Nah...thanks but that came with the game.

My main issue is the lack of index. I just don't see how I can reference rules, and I will most definitely have to, in order to pay. It's not a 20 page rule book. It's 40 pages. Just not feasible to go looking for a specific rule.

Someone did do an expanded table of contents. But I didn't see Disruption there...so I think I'll do a new one  in alphabetical order...see if that helps

neach-gleidhidh na h-Alba