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Author Topic: FOCUS ON......................Line of Sight (LoS)  (Read 4713 times)

bob48

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on: October 03, 2022, 11:36:48 AM
I'll put it here as its likely to be a more appropriate period, but obviously, not exclusively so.

Line of Sight (LoS).

No doubt most of us gaming types have played games whereby one needs to ‘establish a valid line of sight’ in order to visit mayhem, destruction and general discomfort on ones enemies.

Obviously, tactical level games are where this sort of thing forms an integral component of the rules, and, whilst some games handle this aspect quite well, other can be sadly confused and the cause of much perplexity and scratching of the head.

Not too long ago, I had the urge to revisit the GBACW series and got my hands on a used copy of ‘Twin Peaks’ by GMT. No doubt the more astute amongst us will have pleasure in pointing out to me the fact that the game revolves around two battles that include mountains, and such geographical objects are fairly well know as being substantial bits that stick up from the ground in a vertical sort of way.

Now, there really are a lot of elevations in the game and these are denoted in the time honoured way by a colour code system, ranging from a browny to a greeny series of hues. The key on the map looks a bit like one of those colour charts produced by paint companies. Now this is all well and good except that the colour graduation between a lot of the shades is quite slight and can be very difficult to match up with the relevant bit on the map. In some lighting conditions, and for those who eyesight is less than perfect, this can cause somewhat of an annoyance and a frustration to boot.

For me, this actually proved to be a game-killer and I ended up selling the game on.

Its been my contention for many years, and I add that I have expounded on this a few times and in a few places over the years, that I fail to understand why designers just don't simply append the level number to the hex number on the map – for example, 1234/3. This simple method would allow a fast and easy way of knowing at what elevation your unit is in relation to enemy units and/or possible blocking terrain. I have not ever seen this method used so I’d be interested to know if anyone else has.

So, the subject is LOS, good, bad, well handled, frustrating, whatever. Lets have your comments please.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 11:42:58 AM by bob48 »

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bob48

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Reply #1 on: October 04, 2022, 07:17:13 AM
Lieutenant Schmidt stood in the sdkfz 250/1 halftrack and scanned the horizon with his powerful Zeiss binoculars. He sighed and said, 'Nothing, Herr General; its just desert. I have a clear LoS to all points of the compass and can see nothing'

'Ach! - they will all be in a bar in Alexandria drinking cold beer.....................'

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bayonetbrant

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Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 10:43:06 AM
I do like the spotting mechanic in LNLT, where you have to spot a unit just to establish LOS.  I'm not thrilled with the use of "morale" as the spotting tool, but it works reasonably enough


I do think some games significantly over-complicate LOS  and slow the game down in the interest of accurate physics calculations (looking at you, BattleTech)

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Barthheart

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Reply #3 on: October 04, 2022, 04:51:16 PM
I do like the spotting mechanic in LNLT, where you have to spot a unit just to establish LOS.

Not quite. You need to Spot a hex to be able to shoot at it. But LOS is always there. I do like the system too.

Quote
I'm not thrilled with the use of "morale" as the spotting tool, but it works reasonably enough. ...

Don't know what you mean here? Morale is not used for spotting in LnLT.

The Last Hundred Yards uses contour lines on the game map for elevations, which sounds nice but, to me, actually make LOS around hills more complex rather than clearer.

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bob48

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Reply #4 on: October 04, 2022, 05:06:27 PM
Its pretty straightforward with games such as CoH, OST, BoB and Assault as there are only at most one or two levels.

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Barthheart

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Reply #5 on: October 04, 2022, 05:33:31 PM
Well, the OST Stalingrad map has some pretty wild LOS lines because of the close building graphics.

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bayonetbrant

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Reply #6 on: October 04, 2022, 06:02:11 PM
I thought you rolled vs your morale for the spotting roll in LNLT

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Barthheart

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Reply #7 on: October 04, 2022, 06:04:40 PM
I thought you rolled vs your morale for the spotting roll in LNLT

Nope. It's based on the terrain you are looking at.

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bob48

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Reply #8 on: October 04, 2022, 06:12:07 PM
Well, the OST Stalingrad map has some pretty wild LOS lines because of the close building graphics.

I only have Vol II :-)

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judgedredd

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Reply #9 on: October 05, 2022, 02:36:45 AM
The Last Hundred Yards uses contour lines on the game map for elevations, which sounds nice but, to me, actually make LOS around hills more complex rather than clearer.
I was going to post yesterday on this topic and one of the things I was going to mention was The Last Hundred Yards.

One of the things (and this is with The Last Hundred Yards too) is making maps "prettier"...it comes at a cost which is often making the line of sight more difficult.

I'm going to bang on about my favourite solitaire game - so look away if you wish.

Fields of Fire
It's pretty simplistic in Fields of Fire.

1st aspect of the rule
Line of sight is always available to adjacent cards.

2nd aspect of the rule
Line of sight is reciprocal. When an enemy can see your card, you cans see the enemy card

3rd aspect of the rule
The terrain cards have a either a white or green solid or dotted border. The dotted/solid aspect isn't related to line of sight but actually affects fire modifiers into the card. The line of sight aspect is the green and white coloured border (1st picture). A white border (dotted or solid) has line of sight through the card and a solid border stops line of sight. The border on the firer's card does not matter to the firer's line of sight.

4th aspect of the rule
Line of sight is only slightly complicated by elevation (2nd picture)...which is also kept fairly basic. A unit can either be in the upper floor of a building (normal 2 story building or church tower) or on a normal terrain card place don top of (one or many) hills terrain cards.

This is all explained over 2 pages (with graphic examples) on the new revised Fields of Fire ruleset.

Weigh this up against the Line of Sight rules for The Last Hundred Yards which are only a page (no graphic examples) and are considerably more complicated (in my opinion) and, I think, made worse with the maps. Terrain has a huge part to play on how Line of Sight works in a game. The terrain in TLHY has non-significant terrain which adds clutter and, at least initially, some confusion. It also has hills depicted with contours. But there are light and heavy contours which make a difference on line of sight. Then there's the particularly complicated aspect of line of sight in a built up area...sown a street a particular enemy unit may (or may not) have line of sight to your troops on the street.

I can't remember the specifics - but I did find TLHY line of sight particularly complicated.

There's a warm familiarity to older maps in older games (and some new ones too) where it's just plain old colours for elevation and there's no blurred lines on whether that is a heavy woods hex or a light woods hex or whether that is a cultivated field or an orchard. Shadows of features, unimportant minor terrain features, unclear elevation - they all help to overcomplicate the matter -- but they can be simplified even then.



bob48

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Reply #10 on: October 05, 2022, 05:56:44 AM
Interesting to see how a card came tackles the subject as opposed to a hex map game.

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bbmike

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Reply #11 on: October 08, 2022, 10:54:30 AM
An interesting topic and I can't believe it hasn't generated more conversation. Of course each game, as Bob points out, will have its own LOS rules. Is it center-of-hex to center-of-hex? Does the art on the map come into play? If there is disagreement among the players how do you decide?

Here's an image of one of the Assault game tiles. Blocking terrain has an orange 'B' in the hex top vertex (except hills which also block). Who can see who? If one unit has LOS does that mean they both do? I mention artwork coming into play. Can A and B see each other? Hopefully this image will inspire some more discussion!

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bob48

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Reply #12 on: October 08, 2022, 02:25:30 PM
Excellent, Mike. I also quite like the OST rule whereby a LoS traced though a hex with, for instance, a building, is only degraded (and reduces the firing units firepower) if the actual line does not intersect the building artwork.  If if passes through two such hexes, or linear hexside terrain, or a combination of the two, such as walls or hedges, then the LoS is blocked. That works for me.

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Ravensworth

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Reply #13 on: October 18, 2022, 07:57:23 AM
I agree here. I think OST has one of the most Practical spotting systems for a tactical game out there!



Snaekolf

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Reply #14 on: October 19, 2022, 01:44:46 AM
I've been looking into Tactical Combat Series from the Gamers/MMP.  The older games like Hunters from the Skies actually has an algebra equation to figure out LOS.  :nerd: The newer games give you a choice of three different ways to determine LOS I guess to match your comfort level.  I haven't had a chance to get really deep into it, but it certainly looks like it will be a fun trip!