Armchair Dragoons Forums

Wargaming => The Modern World => Topic started by: Cyrano on May 06, 2019, 10:53:59 PM

Title: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on May 06, 2019, 10:53:59 PM
I might be in a bit of a towering rage at the moment.

The next time anyone even suggests to me that the hobby game market and those that lust for chibi minis and elaborate board art are just a few siren notes away from being lured into the Charybdis of consims is getting this hurled at them at great speed:

https://www.dicetower.com/game/255516/brave-little-belgium

Look, Tom and Mary don't need me to defend them.  They're big kids who have accomplishments that speak for themselves.

What brings up my gorge is the self-sure tone of this man-tot banging his rattle against the walls of his pack-n-play because "GAME NOT PRETTY!"  He finds the dice banal for, it would seem, being dice for heaven's sake.

And I wonder what might have happened had someone sent him, oh, "This Guilty Land"?

If consims must die for want of this and what it represents, then they must die.

At least they will go out with a bit of dignity and with their nature intact.

And the memories, for those that have them, will be fine ones.



Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on May 07, 2019, 06:07:04 AM
why so it has...    hmmmmm :monkey:
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on May 07, 2019, 07:31:43 AM
Well...The Dice Tower.  ::)
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: BanzaiCat on May 07, 2019, 09:10:49 AM
Tom's definitely NOT a wargaming guy.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on May 08, 2019, 08:43:28 PM
https://rockymountainnavy.wordpress.com/2019/05/07/wargamer-vs-boardgamer-my-commentary-on-when-best-of-intentions-go-wrong-and-not-helped-by-an-obnoxious-attitude/
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on May 08, 2019, 08:51:08 PM
Dang, now I would really love to see that video.  :doh:
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on May 08, 2019, 09:01:03 PM
I was thinking the same
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on May 08, 2019, 09:44:18 PM
It seriously felt as if Mr. Vasel was bored with every aspect of doing unboxing videos and chose to vent at the first wargame to pass under his hands.

Certainly no one gets all games and no one is going to confuse "BLB" with "Abyss" or "Wingspan", both of which he dotes over aesthetically.

He knows he went too far and may have done some small damage to people that are better than he is in the bargain.  Oh, and now he's effectively conceded the video was rubbish and shown that he's afraid to address his own nonsense and therefore a bit of a coward.





Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on May 08, 2019, 09:51:04 PM
Oh, and the bit where he brutally -- I do not exaggerate -- chastises Hollandspiele for putting boring -- his word -- dice in the box was particularly perverse.

I remember wondering what sort of dice he imagined one would put in a consim and what the princeling fancied he ought to have received.

I further wondered if this sort of nonsense is what lead to the dingy decision by Compass Games to put two ridiculously large dice in "Hearts and Minds, 3e".
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on May 08, 2019, 09:54:01 PM
I like big dice and I cannot lie...
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: BanzaiCat on May 09, 2019, 05:34:53 PM
I wish I could find this video to see what the fuss is about.

Not that I don't believe it's everything y'all are saying; I just can't believe someone would be that audacious with their negativity.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 12:36:03 PM
For those still puzzled as to why I've decided to not attend Origins next year, and have generally withdrawn from public forums...this is it. Life is too short to be dealing with stains like this. My observation/experience is that Origins/GAMA is drifting exactly this way.




Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 12:55:52 PM
I was going to post this elsewhere, but, that little band of us that went wandering to find VPG and found only zombies, it turns out, were witnessing another sign of the end times.

I don't know how many have been following it, but I wouldn't expect any VPG wargames anytime soon.  I know EF has been picked up by GMT, but there is no word re: the 20 series of which I've spoken often.

I grow ever more convinced that, as the hobby changes, the bits I love of it will die.  Oh, there will be enough to see me off, but, yeah...

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on July 03, 2019, 12:58:50 PM
 :(
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 01:07:27 PM
As the wider hobby continues to grow, it is going to pull in more people who are just not interested in hardcore historical wargames. I'm not overly concerned. It's always been a niche group who want to the real groggy stuff. We're better off now because there are still companies like GMT, MMP and Compass that are putting out some high quality wargames and resurrecting a lot of the old classics.

Some companies are going to focus on games with a broader mass appeal. I'm not particularly interested in games with zombies, meeples, or collectible cards, but I can't fault a company for going where the money is.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 01:32:04 PM
Even GMT has heard the siren call of big bucks with it's non-wargames....

Like everyone here I have more than enough games to last me to my last breath so I'm not so worried for me. And there are still slow trickles of gamers coming to wargaming... I've been helping at least two to understand LnLT games. Wargaming has been "dying" for a long time... and will continue to do so for a very long time yet.... until the PC crowds get at it....

But none of that is any reason for any of us to give up on it. Enjoy the hobby any way that pleases you. It lots of fun AND you might actually learn something.  :)

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 01:38:20 PM
Even GMT has heard the siren call of big bucks with it's non-wargames....

I'm all for it if the non-wargame stuff sells well enough to help subsidize some of the more niche games.


Quote
Wargaming has been "dying" for a long time...

40 years at least
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 01:43:20 PM
The zombie games probably let them keep the lights on. The Napoleonic 20 series is good and it looks like they condensed the series into 3 game sets which is nice. The Fading Glory reprint from gmt is really good but quality control failed notice misprinted counter sheets. GMT never corrected the issue. Frankly we been blessed with a glut of game the past decade so a slow down now or later is to be expected.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 01:48:22 PM
Frankly we been blessed with a glut of game the past decade so a slow down now or later is to be expected.

Yep and I don't see it slowing down all that much. Compass, for example, is publishing games at a blistering pace right now.


There are also a lot of options in the minis realm. Tons of new rules (looking at you Osprey) and lots of smaller companies putting out some gorgeous figs.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 01:50:21 PM
Yeah, I'm not one for buying into the hobby dying at all. I just don't see Origins and GAMA as being the place to experience it.

There are plenty of people who are interested, and there are definitely new players. We're a niche hobby. I'm totally cool with that. I also agree that we're seeing some great new stuff from great new designers and companies. No one is going to get rich off of this niche hobby anymore, but there are people that can live off of the earnings.

There's zero point, though, in trying to reach out and "recruit" the other sorts of boardgamers. The ones that will develop an interest will show up. The mass aren't interested - and that fine. There are a minority who are outright socially inept and hostile. They ruin it for everyone. Just like some hostile grog types ruin it for everyone.

As for zombie games...the less said there the better.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 01:54:40 PM
There's zero point, though, in trying to reach out and "recruit" the other sorts of boardgamers. The ones that will develop an interest will show up. The mass aren't interested - and that fine. There are a minority who are outright socially inept and hostile. They ruin it for everyone. Just like some hostile grog types ruin it for everyone.

I completely agree with these points. I'm all for making the hobby accessible and encouraging new players, but I don't expect it to ever really have mass appeal. We're an odd group who like some combination of history, modelling and gaming.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on July 03, 2019, 02:12:22 PM
I'm gonna keep believing companies are going stop making wargames and continue to buy just about everyone I see while I still can.  :D
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:15:07 PM
I'm gonna keep believing companies are going stop making wargames and continue to buy just about everyone I see while I still can.  :D



(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fb06111ca4f61490fe7dc535e0250d603%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D7713620&f=1)
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
Recruiting is critical to maintaining and growing a player base. It can occur in many ways but getting the games out on the table with new people is important. Everyone who plays war games was recruited into the hobby somehow. I was first exposed to war games at the bookstore with Avalon Hill and a friend’s dad who played Risk with us. Later I taught myself and several friends Guns of August and Bull Run.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:19:21 PM
Mine was Axis & Allies with friends who were a few years older and thought it was fun to "teach" you how to play the game by beating the piss out of you. The rest of my buddies and I bought the game, taught ourselves how to actually play and then kicked the crap out of the older guys.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 02:27:39 PM
We absolutely need a proper definition of “death” and “dying” for this to be useful and I may be a pessimist...actually atypical for me.

If it means “no moar wargamez”, well, of course not.  Certainly not in the next decade or so as the tweeners (Baby Boom to “X”) age into retirement.  We’ve got money and will spend on teensy print runs that our era makes possible.  We are better off than our older brothers and dads.  And, in fairness, we’ve been lifted by the tide of hobby gaming.

I think, however, that we’ve been dispatched by the mass market to a cul-de-sac.  I’ve said before it’s a nice one, but here we are nonetheless.  Shoot, even COIN (not wargames)  games are dismissed by many of the cognoscenti as “too complex”.

I am not uniformly enamored of Compass’ products and QA.  MMP is a wonderful boutique. Hollandspiele much the same, but even smaller.  How long will OSG, OSS, Flying Pig, and LnL endure past the passion of their founders?  We all know how narrow their margins are.  Will others emerge?  I hope so.  I do.

And, it should be said, we live in a time that has begun to regard the study of military history with a suspicion reminiscent of the 60s.

I, like y’all, am more than set for life.  And this hobby has shown itself resilient.  But I am not optimistic.

And, clearly, neither GenCon nor Origins is all that interested.  Certainly the vendors themselves are not interested in them.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 02:28:27 PM
Mine was Axis & Allies with friends who were a few years older and thought it was fun to "teach" you how to play the game by beating the piss out of you. The rest of my buddies and I bought the game, taught ourselves how to actually play and then kicked the crap out of the older guys.

My brother loved Axis and Allies. I think he loved to...bend the rules to win. A summer of trauma followed. I hate the game to this day.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:33:08 PM
Mine was Axis & Allies with friends who were a few years older and thought it was fun to "teach" you how to play the game by beating the piss out of you. The rest of my buddies and I bought the game, taught ourselves how to actually play and then kicked the crap out of the older guys.

My brother loved Axis and Allies. I think he loved to...bend the rules to win. A summer of trauma followed. I hate the game to this day.

I played it hundreds of times in high school and college to the point that it became completely boring. We all knew exactly what had to happen on the first turn to give the Axis a realistic chance to win. A couple of bad die roles and we'd usually reset (typically by flipping the board).

I have 4-5 copies of the various versions, but haven't played a complete game in close to 20 years.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 02:37:26 PM
We absolutely need a proper definition of “death” and “dying” for this to be useful and I may be a pessimist...actually atypical for me.

If it means “no moar wargamez”, well, of course not.  Certainly not in the next decade or so as the tweeners (Baby Boom to “X”) age into retirement.  We’ve got money and will spend on teensy print runs that our era makes possible.  We are better off than our older brothers and dads.  And, in fairness, we’ve been lifted by the tide of hobby gaming.

I think, however, that we’ve been dispatched by the mass market to a cul-de-sac.  I’ve said before it’s a nice one, but here we are nonetheless.  Shoot, even COIN (not wargames)  games are dismissed by many of the cognoscenti as “too complex”.

I am not uniformly enamored of Compass’ products and QA.  MMP is a wonderful boutique. Hollandspiele much the same, but even smaller.  How long will OSG, OSS, Flying Pig, and LnL endure past the passion of their founders?  We all know how narrow their margins are.  Will others emerge?  I hope so.  I do.

And, it should be said, we live in a time that has begun to regard the study of military history with a suspicion reminiscent of the 60s.

I, like y’all, am more than set for life.  And this hobby has shown itself resilient.  But I am not optimistic.

And, clearly, neither GenCon nor Origins is all that interested.  Certainly the vendors themselves are not interested in them.

I think the big conventions are about exposure and money. If you want to wargame at convention, it’s consimworld you want to attend.
http://expo.consimworld.com/

I’m not in the doom and gloom camp. Things change. Avalon Hill and other companies had their day and rode off into the sunset. Today it’s GMT and Compass. In twenty years, who knows but I believe someone will still  be publishing war games and people will scoff at the rudimentary rules of today’s game like many today scoff at games like Gettysburg and Stalingrad.

On a side note: I don’t understand the COIN games are not war games sentiment.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 02:38:09 PM
I just had a dude (probably a young dude, from his commentary) on r/wargames of Reddit tell me that Total War: Napoleon was a better, more historical game than SOW:W, and that Starcraft presented more complex strategic situations than most wargames. He further argued that warfare hadn't change appreciably in 2000 years, so things like order delays in SOW:W were a video game conceit and had nothing to do with historical accuracy in a wargame.

Sadly, that was the most in-depth conversation about wargames that I've had on r/wargames in several years.

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 02:39:25 PM
That is sad indeed.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 02:42:32 PM
I've never found any depth of discussion on any topic over at Reddit....
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 02:43:50 PM
He further argued that warfare hadn't change appreciably in 2000 years, so things like order delays in SOW:W were a video game conceit and had nothing to do with historical accuracy in a wargame.


and this is why wargaming will remain a hobby for more mature gamers - a broader scope of historical understanding that youngsters just haven't lived long enough to full grasp
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 02:43:59 PM
I’ve never read anything on reddit.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:44:13 PM
I am not uniformly enamored of Compass’ products and QA.

Nor am I, but they are turning out games at a prodigious rate and show no signs of slowing in the near term.

Quote
And, clearly, neither GenCon nor Origins is all that interested.  Certainly the vendors themselves are not interested in them.

I appreciate the work you guys have put in at Origins, but having attended recently I can say with some confidence that it is not a wargaming convention nor does it seem all that interested in really supporting the hobby. That said, there are plenty of other cons out there that are more aligned with and supportive of the hobby.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 02:45:16 PM
….
On a side note: I don’t understand the COIN games are not war games sentiment.

ACK! Do not open that can!!!!  :doh:
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:46:03 PM
RE: Reddit - It enjoy browsing a few of the subs, but I don't post there and I don't consider it a good source for information or discourse when it comes to gaming topics.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:47:09 PM
….
On a side note: I don’t understand the COIN games are not war games sentiment.

ACK! Do not open that can!!!!  :doh:

I'm staying out of this one :P
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 02:47:12 PM
….
On a side note: I don’t understand the COIN games are not war games sentiment.

ACK! Do not open that can!!!!  :doh:

It’s not like I’m suggesting you clip the corners on the wooden bits.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
He further argued that warfare hadn't change appreciably in 2000 years, so things like order delays in SOW:W were a video game conceit and had nothing to do with historical accuracy in a wargame.


and this is why wargaming will remain a hobby for more mature gamers - a broader scope of historical understanding that youngsters just haven't lived long enough to full grasp

I wasn't "mature" when I got into the hobby. I bought my first AH game, Luftwaffe, when I was 14. All it takes is a little reading of history and literally anyone can understand how wrong that young man was. Maybe it's a failure of history teachings at a young age? I don't have kids so have no read on that subject but I know I love history in high school.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 02:53:57 PM
people will scoff at the rudimentary rules of today’s game like many today scoff at games like Gettysburg and Stalingrad.

They won't scoff if they play something like Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov or Operation Dauntless.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 02:54:51 PM
That is sad indeed.

Actually, the sad thing was that there was no indication that there was any possibility of discussion. Things were that way, and that was it. It was an argument, not a discussion, and the only thing that mattered was winning. He was right, period. A quick review of his (one year old) comment history showed that every comment he made was in that vein.

Which is the problem with online discussion in general, and online discussions of wargaming specifically. That's the problem with a large segment of what you find on Youtube, Facebook, or Reddit about wargaming or specific games.  People don't want to talk about their hobby, they want you to agree with their opinion on their hobby. I find it's a complete waste of time to frequent those venues anymore. It's the same type of people I keep running into at Origins.

I'm much happier sitting down every Thursday with my regular gaming opponent. We play, we discuss the game, we discuss the hobby (we are both involved as designers/developers), and we have an enjoyable time. I'd love more of a "club" environment where multiple people did the same regularly.

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 02:57:06 PM
I appreciate the work you guys have put in at Origins, but having attended recently I can say with some confidence that it is not a wargaming convention nor does it seem all that interested in really supporting the hobby. That said, there are plenty of other cons out there that are more aligned with and supportive of the hobby.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on July 03, 2019, 02:57:32 PM
He further argued that warfare hadn't change appreciably in 2000 years, so things like order delays in SOW:W were a video game conceit and had nothing to do with historical accuracy in a wargame.


and this is why wargaming will remain a hobby for more mature gamers - a broader scope of historical understanding that youngsters just haven't lived long enough to full grasp

I wasn't "mature" when I got into the hobby. I bought my first AH game, Luftwaffe, when I was 14. All it takes is a little reading of history and literally anyone can understand how wrong that young man was. Maybe it's a failure of history teachings at a young age? I don't have kids so have no read on that subject but I know I love history in high school.

I think part of it is a failure of teaching history in those early years. I know I really didn't like history until my college years. The teachers who taught me before then did not seem to care about the subject at all.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 03:00:53 PM
... I'd love more of a "club" environment where multiple people did the same regularly.

Jim's doing a fine job with Saturday Night Fights to create just that.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 03:01:59 PM
I'm much happier sitting down every Thursday with my regular gaming opponent. We play, we discuss the game, we discuss the hobby (we are both involved as designers/developers), and we have an enjoyable time. I'd love more of a "club" environment where multiple people did the same regularly.

I'm with you there and I'm fortunate enough to have something of a club.


I've learned the hard way about gaming at cons. I stick with games that I have some experience with and have a published set of rules (versus homebrew rules that exist largely in the gamemaster's head). I also tend to only play in games where I know who the GM is and how they run games. I've been burned too many times by shitty GMs running shitty house ruled games. Those make for interminably long, painful sessions.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 03:07:04 PM
I wasn't "mature" when I got into the hobby. I bought my first AH game, Luftwaffe, when I was 14. All it takes is a little reading of history and literally anyone can understand how wrong that young man was. Maybe it's a failure of history teachings at a young age? I don't have kids so have no read on that subject but I know I love history in high school.

Same here. I was probably 10 when I bought "Alexander the Great" and played it until the graphics had nearly worn off the counters. I was always interested in history, especially military history, for as long as I can remember.  I think that's the difference. I've never found a wargamer that wasn't interested in history. There are plenty of boardgamers that aren't. There are plenty that actively despise history. It's probably a waste of time to try and persuade people who aren't interested in the thing that's at the core of our hobby to get involved.

So, in an effort to be more positive, if Origins isn't the place to be (I agree with Mirth's assessment), then what con would be a better one for ACD to have a presence? Do we even want to go to a con? Why not rent a cabin or a block of rooms and meet up, like a club, to play games and hang out? If you ask the team from Origins the number one reason they go, the answer is always to hang out with other people from ACD. Why insist on interrupting the gaming and hanging out with ancillary stuff?
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 03:08:33 PM
... I'd love more of a "club" environment where multiple people did the same regularly.

Jim's doing a fine job with Saturday Night Fights to create just that.

Quit streaming it to turn it into yet another "let's promote the hobby" thing, and I'll agree with that. Let's just play games, and stop with all the "Look at us! We play wargames!" stuff.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on July 03, 2019, 03:11:04 PM
I appreciate the work you guys have put in at Origins, but having attended recently I can say with some confidence that it is not a wargaming convention nor does it seem all that interested in really supporting the hobby. That said, there are plenty of other cons out there that are more aligned with and supportive of the hobby.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Which, sadly, really was a game at Origins...

(http://www.aarcentral.com/pics2/IMG_3636.jpg)
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 03:12:24 PM
I appreciate the work you guys have put in at Origins, but having attended recently I can say with some confidence that it is not a wargaming convention nor does it seem all that interested in really supporting the hobby. That said, there are plenty of other cons out there that are more aligned with and supportive of the hobby.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.


Which, sadly, really was a game at Origins...

(http://www.aarcentral.com/pics2/IMG_3636.jpg)

Hence my choice of phrase  ;)
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 03:12:39 PM
... I'd love more of a "club" environment where multiple people did the same regularly.

Jim's doing a fine job with Saturday Night Fights to create just that.

Quit streaming it to turn it into yet another "let's promote the hobby" thing, and I'll agree with that. Let's just play games, and stop with all the "Look at us! We play wargames!" stuff.

Grumpy old man! Someone pee in yer cornflakes this morning?  ;D
I don't see the streaming thing as "let's promote the hobby" thing. We only get a handful of watchers and they are all already wargamers.... I see it a as a bunch of guys playing wargames and letting other who enjoy wargames watch and kibitz... like a gaming club...
 
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 03:15:10 PM
I appreciate the work you guys have put in at Origins, but having attended recently I can say with some confidence that it is not a wargaming convention nor does it seem all that interested in really supporting the hobby. That said, there are plenty of other cons out there that are more aligned with and supportive of the hobby.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Which, sadly, really was a game at Origins...

(http://www.aarcentral.com/pics2/IMG_3636.jpg)

Oh sweet Moses  :D
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 03:17:18 PM
Grumpy old man! Someone pee in yer cornflakes this morning?  ;D
I don't see the streaming thing as "let's promote the hobby" thing. We only get a handful of watchers and they are all already wargamers.... I see it a as a bunch of guys playing wargames and letting other who enjoy wargames watch and kibitz... like a gaming club...

I am totally in grumpy old man mode. It's everything I can do to not blame this entire discussion on Millennials.

Having said that, the streaming does put me off. I feel like it's a performance, not a game.

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Grumpy old man! Someone pee in yer cornflakes this morning?  ;D
I don't see the streaming thing as "let's promote the hobby" thing. We only get a handful of watchers and they are all already wargamers.... I see it a as a bunch of guys playing wargames and letting other who enjoy wargames watch and kibitz... like a gaming club...

I am totally in grumpy old man mode. It's everything I can do to not blame this entire discussion on Millennials.

Having said that, the streaming does put me off. I feel like it's a performance, not a game.

Well... maybe we need to a few sessions that are not performance art....
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 03:21:19 PM
Grumpy old man! Someone pee in yer cornflakes this morning?  ;D
I don't see the streaming thing as "let's promote the hobby" thing. We only get a handful of watchers and they are all already wargamers.... I see it a as a bunch of guys playing wargames and letting other who enjoy wargames watch and kibitz... like a gaming club...

I am totally in grumpy old man mode. It's everything I can do to not blame this entire discussion on Millennials.

Having said that, the streaming does put me off. I feel like it's a performance, not a game.

Well... maybe we need to a few sessions that are not performance art....

probably better if I sit those out :P
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
The place to be is Origins, if the goal is to promote the hobby. If the goal is to play and discuss war games with more people who already share your passion, I doubt origins is the place to be for the best experience. How many people have be exposed to kreigsspeil or finally able to play it because it’s made available? I’m willing to bet it’s “house ruled” and the GM is unknown to many of the new players.

I guess I’m in the minority. I’ll play a game run by anyone...once. Then all bets are off. My time is not your time to waste if I don’t enjoy your company or the gameplay experience.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 03:40:59 PM
... I'd love more of a "club" environment where multiple people did the same regularly.

Jim's doing a fine job with Saturday Night Fights to create just that.

Quit streaming it to turn it into yet another "let's promote the hobby" thing, and I'll agree with that. Let's just play games, and stop with all the "Look at us! We play wargames!" stuff.

Grumpy old man! Someone pee in yer cornflakes this morning?  ;D
I don't see the streaming thing as "let's promote the hobby" thing. We only get a handful of watchers and they are all already wargamers.... I see it a as a bunch of guys playing wargames and letting other who enjoy wargames watch and kibitz... like a gaming club...

Ha!  My guy is still mad at the Reddit children.

No, I am far more a rival of "Little Wars TV" than anything else.  I am profoundly jealous of their sweet clubhouse and the fact that's it's close to others.

I broadcast the games because I always wanted to remember them.  I honestly don't care how many watch, but, I would not mind if others could  join the club.

It's over a decade now since the best wargame store in town (only) closed.  It took a chunk of my childhood with me.  Given my schedule, getting out for a night of gaming is very, very rare indeed.  Being able to hook up with other folks on-line will just have to do.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 03:49:18 PM


One of my favorite wargame channels. Why? Hail Ceasar is a game I want to build and paint armies for some day. It’s just a dad and son playing and enjoying a game. Minis are painted but not the best quality. It doesn’t matter. They are having fun and that’s ultimately what matter from my stand point.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 03:50:11 PM
….
On a side note: I don’t understand the COIN games are not war games sentiment.

ACK! Do not open that can!!!!  :doh:

It’s not like I’m suggesting you clip the corners on the wooden bits.

My opinion is subjective and, in the grand scheme, meaningless, but it is what I think.  Marco gave me the very fine definition that a "wargame makes me feel like I'm playing a wargame".  COIN games do not.  They are excellent (most of them) war-themed euros.  I own all but one of them.  They are not wargames to me.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 03:50:57 PM
The place to be is Origins, if the goal is to promote the hobby.

Nah, it really isn't. That's the point and what much discussion has been about. There aren't very many wargamers at Origins. There are fewer and fewer vendors. This year there were three vendors selling wargames, total. Most of the vendors we've worked with in the past have decided to not do Origins anymore.

Our best attended events are the CPX and Kriegsspiel sessions. Most of the players for both of those are repeats.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 03:51:02 PM


One of my favorite wargame channels. Why? Hail Ceasar is a game I want to build and paint armies for some day. It’s just a dad and son playing and enjoying a game. Minis are painted but not the best quality. It doesn’t matter. They are having fun and that’s ultimately what matter from my stand point.

Yep. 100%.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 03:57:28 PM
The place to be is Origins, if the goal is to promote the hobby.

Nah, it really isn't. That's the point and what much discussion has been about. There aren't very many wargamers at Origins. There are fewer and fewer vendors. This year there were three vendors selling wargames, total. Most of the vendors we've worked with in the past have decided to not do Origins anymore.

Our best attended events are the CPX and Kriegsspiel sessions. Most of the players for both of those are repeats.

And this is where I'm at too, I fear.

Can't be much for wargaming if even the vendors don't come.

That started me thinking about why the vendors don't come.

If the optimists are correct -- and may you please be -- they've decided to market to their niche in niche ways.  Shoot, even GMT wasn't there themselves.

And here, I think, is why I'm so down:  Gen Con and Origins were wargaming conventions.  Brant and I proved that over and over again beyond honest argument in "Dragon Up the Past".  I remember vividly when we were run out of Gen Con.  And now Origins has driven away too.  Doubly difficult is that it drove away just as this nerdy gaming thing was really taking off.  Change comes, but I've been at this so long, I'll forgive myself a bit of nostalgia for the good old days.  I do think, though, that I need to Elsa on this one.



Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 03:58:00 PM
Fair enough. I’m honestly just curious and not looking for drama at all. From personal experience, I will just say I find that they are a good model of COIN from a strategic to operational level. That being said I don’t overly enjoy playing them. I only have one left in my collection and that is fire in the lake. IMHO the best one in the series. 😁

Definitely a discussion for another thread but I honestly feel the level of war a game models has some of the most direct influence on how different people perceive and how receptive they are to a war game.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 03:59:14 PM
My opinion is subjective and, in the grand scheme, meaningless, but it is what I think.  Marco gave me the very fine definition that a "wargame makes me feel like I'm playing a wargame".  COIN games do not.  They are excellent (most of them) war-themed euros.  I own all but one of them.  They are not wargames to me.

That's how I feel about them,  "war-themed euros". And I like the series and am glad it has been successful.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 03:59:21 PM
Do we even want to go to a con? Why not rent a cabin or a block of rooms and meet up, like a club, to play games and hang out? If you ask the team from Origins the number one reason they go, the answer is always to hang out with other people from ACD. Why insist on interrupting the gaming and hanging out with ancillary stuff?


this is already in progress, with a tentative target date in late February.  I've already got calls in to a couple of hotels about a package deal of a ballroom / banquet room set up for games, plus about 8 rooms as a block rate and I'll let folks know as soon as I find out about pricing from them.


We're pretty small potatoes for most of the hotels I've reached out to, but it's a big step for us.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bob48 on July 03, 2019, 04:04:16 PM
OK, I can fix you up in a hotel where I can get a big discount on a gaming room and rooms......................
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 04:06:09 PM
OK, I can fix you up in a hotel where I can get a big discount on a gaming room and rooms......................


and the plane tickets... ?   :whistle:
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bob48 on July 03, 2019, 04:08:43 PM
Y'can't expect me to do everything...........
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 04:09:05 PM
And here, I think, is why I'm so down:  Gen Con and Origins were wargaming conventions.  Brant and I proved that over and over again beyond honest argument in "Dragon Up the Past".  I remember vividly when we were run out of Gen Con.  And now Origins has driven away too.  Doubly difficult is that it drove away just as this nerdy gaming thing was really taking off.  Change comes, but I've been at this so long, I'll forgive myself a bit of nostalgia for the good old days.  I do think, though, that I need to Elsa on this one.


I think one of the reasons that you and I and Gary and Avery are still high on Origins is that while we are there primarily for wargaming, there's plenty of other gaming there that also holds our interest, whether old-school RPGs, or something with the kids, or just goofy merchandise like the unicorn game you were looking for in 2018.


For someone who is more single-tracked into wargaming, I get the dwindling appeal, but I'm not quite yet ready to surrender if we can evolve our model and better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 04:15:27 PM
Some of you should seriously consider Huzzah in May. It's a sweet little con that is primarily focused on historical minis wargaming. The venue is nice and you can stay right there for pretty cheap (the room rates are about 115/night for a double).

Maine is quite nice in mid-May and there's plenty to see/do in the immediate area so a lot of people make it a family weekend.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 04:23:50 PM
My opinion is subjective and, in the grand scheme, meaningless, but it is what I think.  Marco gave me the very fine definition that a "wargame makes me feel like I'm playing a wargame".  COIN games do not.  They are excellent (most of them) war-themed euros.  I own all but one of them.  They are not wargames to me.

That's how I feel about them,  "war-themed euros". And I like the series and am glad it has been successful.

I'm on the "war-themed euro" side of things and don't particularly like to play them.  Which isn't to say they aren't good games, or that people who do play them are somehow unjustified in enjoying them.

Which is the maddening bit I was referencing above.  Sure, there are bad games out there, but they're few and far between. Usually, being bad has more to do with bad rules editing or crappy components than anything else. There seem to be more than a few people though, who because they don't like a particular game feel compelled to declare it and everyone who plays it "bad."

Which was the start of this thread.  No problem that the reviewer didn't like "Brave Little Belgium" because he doesn't like wargames. I don't like broccoli, but that doesn't mean I need to trash every restaurant that sells it. I don't like the COIN games, but that doesn't mean that GMT is wrong to sell them or for all the people I saw playing them at Origins to be wrong/bad for playing them. I lean heavily toward Kriegsspiel-style games, but I get that they aren't everyone's cup of tea. Say that, not "Kriegsspiel sucks!"

Different strokes and all. I think it's an interesting discussion as to why people like certain games and dislike others. Unfortunately, "I like Battlefront because..." too often turns into "Battlefront sucks and is evil and you suck for liking it!" most places. (That's an example, I haven't played a Battlefront game for years now).
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 04:29:08 PM
My first stop would be Historicon as I've not been in years, although the return to Valley Forge makes Cold Wars very appealing.

My beloved is less than enamored of the location of Historicon vis-a-vis other things to do.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 04:30:29 PM
I like to bust balls about "real wargames", but I honestly don't care what people like to play. I know the kinds of games I enjoy and I gravitate toward those styles.

Within my local group, I play a lot of things that aren't my preference, but as part of a "club" you support the other guys' interests. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy the figs or rules, but I am more than happy to push someone else's lead and give something new a try.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
For someone who is more single-tracked into wargaming, I get the dwindling appeal, but I'm not quite yet ready to surrender if we can evolve our model and better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers.

I certainly don't read Jim's comments as him being "high on Origins."

And given that you don't go play any of that stuff you mentioned...
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 04:32:08 PM
The question for me  when it comes to a war game is simply “what are you trying to model?” and “how are you modeling it?”

Fog of war? Synchronization of formations in a battle? Political and military efforts? Replicate a historical battle or operation? Variation through dice or cards? Etc...
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 04:32:29 PM
My first stop would be Historicon as I've not been in years, although the return to Valley Forge makes Cold Wars very appealing.

My beloved is less than enamored of the location of Historicon vis-a-vis other things to do.


Lancaster is a little dull, but they moved to a new venue this year so you at least don't have to deal with The Moist anymore.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 04:36:27 PM
My first stop would be Historicon as I've not been in years, although the return to Valley Forge makes Cold Wars very appealing.

My beloved is less than enamored of the location of Historicon vis-a-vis other things to do.


Lancaster is a little dull, but they moved to a new venue this year so you at least don't have to deal with The Moist anymore.

HA!

You've been, then?  Should have figured.

I remember it very well, but frankly loved every minute I spent in that weedy dump.

Mind you I slept at a hotel just down the street.

I figure I might squeak one year out of Amish shopping and that weird theme park.  I'm done after that.

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 04:39:35 PM
I went last year. The were in the middle of renovations at the Host. It was a train wreck. I took a wrong turn and ended up in a corridor that I'm pretty sure was in an alternate dimension.

We stayed at a motel down the road. It was pretty minimal, but it was cheap, clean and the AC worked.

That theme park is weird AF.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 04:40:41 PM
I took a wrong turn in ended up in a corridor that I'm pretty sure was in an alternate dimension.


So, got your money's worth then?
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 04:41:56 PM
I took a wrong turn in ended up in a corridor that I'm pretty sure was in an alternate dimension.


So, got your money's worth then?

I was waiting for the river of blood to wash over my ankles.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 04:45:57 PM
I took a wrong turn in ended up in a corridor that I'm pretty sure was in an alternate dimension.


So, got your money's worth then?

I was waiting for the river of blood to wash over my ankles.

That costs extra generic tokens.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 04:46:58 PM
I took a wrong turn in ended up in a corridor that I'm pretty sure was in an alternate dimension.


So, got your money's worth then?

I was waiting for the river of blood to wash over my ankles.

It was the got-damned lizards in the bar...
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 04:50:55 PM
I took a wrong turn in ended up in a corridor that I'm pretty sure was in an alternate dimension.


So, got your money's worth then?

I was waiting for the river of blood to wash over my ankles.

It was the got-damned lizards in the bar...

Wait, why are we not going to a con with extra-dimensional blood-spewing corridors and lizard people?

I think I've spent a few hundred bucks with Steve Jackson Games this year to get just that.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 03, 2019, 04:54:29 PM
I enjoyed Prezcon. Played Combat Commander and American Revolution series. Watched several games of Russia Besieged and play tested a MMP Civil War game.  Then I went to Monticello for a day. 
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 04:55:06 PM
I enjoyed Prezcon. Played Combat Commander and American Revolution series. Watched several games of Russia Besieged and play tested a MMP Civil War game.  Then I went to Monticello for a day.

Nice  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bob48 on July 03, 2019, 04:56:14 PM
The 'Line of Battle' ACW games by MMP are pretty good.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 04:58:46 PM
And given that you don't go play any of that stuff you mentioned...

I don't play as much as I'd like at Origins, but I do like the expansive and diverse exhibit hall for some of the things I find there.  I might not buy a ton of stuff, but I certainly look through a lot of it for a sense of what's new, what's hot, and where the ideas are going.  The family and I also usually pick up a game or two for us to play at home, going all the way back to Kids of Carcassonne in 2009, up through Squirrel or Die this year.

I actually played more this year than in the past several combined, as I ended up playing in the Ft Sumter game I GM'ed, plus playing in one of the COIN games I GM'ed, plus playing at least 2 demos in the exhibit hall w/ my son.


Part of that is the fiscal reality that I've got a kid in high-level travel soccer who is headed to college in 2 years, so blowing $100-200 on cool books that I'll read a few times before shelving them long-term isn't something I can do every year.  (Tho, this year I did spend about $50 on a really nice bolt-action pen, which I did justify b/c I'm using it every day  :whistle: [

Having a freebie or two along the way coming out of the show helps reduce some of that 'need' to go home with something.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 05:06:56 PM
going back to my comment above....  if we've got our own weekend set aside for gaming - big table, big map, counter-pushing, bourbon-quaffing, dice-slinging games for a solid weekend at a hotel ballroom somewhere, are folks interested in getting together for a good weekend of games with each other?

B/c I've already got a few RFQ's out there with some local hotels here about getting us a place for exactly that: bunch of tables, a couple of hotel rooms, invite some locals who might want to game, too, and anyone who isn't staying at the hotel pitches in $5-10 at the door to help cover the cost (I'll get my kids to work the door).

No vendors or exhibitors, no special guests, no seminar track, no prize giveaways unless someone offers us some door prizes raffle off (but no expectation of it).  Maybe a designer or two bringing in a playtest game (David Thompson mentioned hoping to attend) or maybe Bayonet Jr hooks up his Xbox in a corner to a projector for some multi-player HALO games.  Maybe we get a couple of RPG sessions going too.  But nothing formal, structured, or organized beyond posting in the forums here to say "hey, let's play _____!"


Whadday'all think?
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 05:10:53 PM
For me, if I do walk away from Origins -- which I would do with a measure of regret -- I would first want to return to one or two miniature conventions that I've passed on over the years.

Huzzah is actually on the list as is Buck Surdu's con -- what has a name that escapes me at the moment.

Little Wars (close to home), Historicon, Fall-In, Cold Wars...

Long list of stuff I really do miss.

I've come to realize, yeah, I'm a minis gamer at heart.

And Kriegsspiel.

ALWAYS PLAY THE KRIEGSSPIEL.

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 05:13:18 PM
And given that you don't go play any of that stuff you mentioned...

I don't play as much as I'd like at Origins, but I do like the expansive and diverse exhibit hall for some of the things I find there.  I might not buy a ton of stuff, but I certainly look through a lot of it for a sense of what's new, what's hot, and where the ideas are going.  The family and I also usually pick up a game or two for us to play at home, going all the way back to Kids of Carcassonne in 2009, up through Squirrel or Die this year.

I actually played more this year than in the past several combined, as I ended up playing in the Ft Sumter game I GM'ed, plus playing in one of the COIN games I GM'ed, plus playing at least 2 demos in the exhibit hall w/ my son.


Part of that is the fiscal reality that I've got a kid in high-level travel soccer who is headed to college in 2 years, so blowing $100-200 on cool books that I'll read a few times before shelving them long-term isn't something I can do every year.  (Tho, this year I did spend about $50 on a really nice bolt-action pen, which I did justify b/c I'm using it every day  :whistle: [

Having a freebie or two along the way coming out of the show helps reduce some of that 'need' to go home with something.

Absolutely none of which does anything to "better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers" at a con that is decidedly not wargamer friendly.


Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 05:15:00 PM
going back to my comment above....  if we've got our own weekend set aside for gaming - big table, big map, counter-pushing, bourbon-quaffing, dice-slinging games for a solid weekend at a hotel ballroom somewhere, are folks interested in getting together for a good weekend of games with each other?

B/c I've already got a few RFQ's out there with some local hotels here about getting us a place for exactly that: bunch of tables, a couple of hotel rooms, invite some locals who might want to game, too, and anyone who isn't staying at the hotel pitches in $5-10 at the door to help cover the cost (I'll get my kids to work the door).

No vendors or exhibitors, no special guests, no seminar track, no prize giveaways unless someone offers us some door prizes raffle off (but no expectation of it).  Maybe a designer or two bringing in a playtest game (David Thompson mentioned hoping to attend) or maybe Bayonet Jr hooks up his Xbox in a corner to a projector for some multi-player HALO games.  Maybe we get a couple of RPG sessions going too.  But nothing formal, structured, or organized beyond posting in the forums here to say "hey, let's play _____!"


Whadday'all think?

I would do this over going to a con.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bob48 on July 03, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
Going back a good few years, the UK distributor for SPI (SPUK) did exactly that for several years - called it 'SPUK ORGY' and it held in a hotel in Altrincham near Manchester. They were very well attended and games were going on for pretty much the whole time, with folks crashing out in the rooms and then back for more gaming. I only managed to attend once, but it was an absolute hoot.

We took part in a multi player umpired game of 'Sniper'which was awesome :-)
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 05:20:22 PM

And Kriegsspiel.

ALWAYS PLAY THE KRIEGSSPIEL.

I'm more than halfway serious about setting up a Midwest Kriegsspiel Society and doing 1-2 meets a year plus PBEM/online stuff.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 03, 2019, 05:23:40 PM
Yep.  The demand for PBEM KS is real.

Not massive, mind.

Just real.

And I'm convinced there's a way to do it live over something like Discord, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

Jim
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on July 03, 2019, 05:24:45 PM
I feel pretty lucky.  We've got two major cons here in Vancouver that are heavily slanted towards wargaming and several other smaller cons with a healthy wargames/minis presence. 
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Barthheart on July 03, 2019, 05:32:16 PM
And I envy you all that like going to cons. I joke about it but I really don’t like people. I’m actually painfully shy, so I don’t like meeting new people cold.
I’ve originally signed on to go to Origins with you lot because I “knew” most of you and thought teaching games I know well to strangers would be good for me... turns out I still don’t like strangers.  :P

So I Ben if there was a local con I probably would not go because I would play with strangers.  :Loser:

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 03, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
Absolutely none of which does anything to "better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers" at a con that is decidedly not wargamer friendly.

I mean, look...  I get that it's an uphill fight and all, but I've been submitting and running events for a decade.  I was an exhibitor for 3 years.  I brought in, what... 8? 9? companies that hadn't been there in forever and have a few others I'm still working on.  I talked GAMA into even giving us a wargaming program to try, and I've either written or posted upwards of 100 articles about the show, not counting all the social media discussion before the show each year. 
We tried a kids' program that didn't quite pan out the way we hoped; sometimes that happens.
We also tried an open gaming area for others to come play in our space, and it didn't quite take off, but we also never went back to it.
So it's not like I haven't been trying to "better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers" going back to 2005....

I've got a call early next week with John Stacy to talk about option on how we can make the show more wargamer-friendly and bring the grognards back into the fold, and Paul & Ian know my number by heart that when I call the office, the greeting isn't "Thanks for calling GAMA" but "Hey, Brant, what's up?"

I get that one course of action is packing it in and walking away.
I know that we were operating under a vendor-centric model w/ the John Ward regime that probably isn't sustainable anymore, and we likely have to jettison.

We've also learned that over the past 5 years, we're unlikely to convert a ton of wargamers, so what can we do to support & encourage those that are there, and/or bring crossover wargamers (or lapsed ones) back into the fold?
And how can we do it without burning ourselves out?

Yeah, we can channel our inner Frenchman and wave the white flag.
I'm not quite ready to do that yet, but I'm also not going to pretend I have all the answers, and I'm willing to take all sorts of suggestions on what we can do and we don't want to do.

I totally respect the position of those of you that aren't interested in working Origins anymore.
I get it.
It's a lot of work and if you're not enjoying it, then what's the point?
I totally understand it and I appreciate all the hours of effort and (especially) the small personal fortunes y'all've sunk into being there to wave the wargaming flag and proclaim the gospel of wargamedness.
It really does warm my heart that y'all believed in the program enough to be a part of it, and while it saddens me that you guys might want to do other things, I absolutely get it.

I'm also not ready to give up the ship yet, and I'm looking for ideas of other ways to steer it, and hoping to get some good dialogue going with GAMA about how they can calm the waters for us (is that enough naval metaphors for y'all?)

And I'm willing to do all of that while also kick-starting our own wargaming weekend that might grow into more of what we all want, which is a chance to game and carouse with our friends we've made along the way.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 03, 2019, 05:43:51 PM
For the record, I wasn't dumping on Origins. I was glad I went and I wouldn't rule out going again, but it's never going to be an annual thing for me. I was also just giving an honest assessment of what seemed like as a wargaming experience compared to other cons I've attended.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: panzerde on July 03, 2019, 05:52:54 PM

Yeah, we can channel our inner Frenchman and wave the white flag.
I'm not quite ready to do that yet, but I'm also not going to pretend I have all the answers, and I'm willing to take all sorts of suggestions on what we can do and we don't want to do.


Or we could do our thing at a con that actually is full of wargamers, because such things exist and are well attended. Maybe not 21K people attended, but when 20, 980 of those 21K wish you weren't there maybe that's something to consider?
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: besilarius on July 06, 2019, 02:52:03 PM
I realise that most foks here are not miniature gamers, but the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society, hmgs.org, is having thier big summer con in Lancaster, PA, this month.
Also, the regional HMGS groups put on their own cons.  If the Midwest is the area craving a con, why not partner up with them?
Whether it is cardboard you move, or lead, it's all gaming.

https://www.hmgs.org/?

http://www.hmgsmidwest.com/

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: mirth on July 06, 2019, 02:57:08 PM
Historicon is a great wargaming con. Went in 2018 and hope to go again soon.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Cyrano on July 06, 2019, 04:26:32 PM
I've mentioned elsewhere that's very high on my list of Origins replacements if that's what my family decides to do.

Historicon is honestly the one con I've ever been to where I legitimately felt I had to explain my obsessions to no one.

There was one day in particular, probably eight years ago, when I signed up for a game of Sharp Practice in the early morning and was then invited for a sequence of Napoleonic games using various systems for 14 hours straight.  I became very ill...probably exhaustion.  I smile still to think of it.

Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bbmike on July 06, 2019, 05:30:00 PM
Historicon is a great wargaming con. Went in 2018 and hope to go again soon.

I'm planning to get to that one soon.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Adam on July 06, 2019, 09:39:13 PM
We've also learned that over the past 5 years, we're unlikely to convert a ton of wargamers, so what can we do to support & encourage those that are there, and/or bring crossover wargamers (or lapsed ones) back into the fold?
And how can we do it without burning ourselves out?

I think you guys are a bit down on the amount of "wargaming" happening at Origins.  Hall A had several minis games of all slices (fantasy, historical, sci-fi).  Both Hall A and Hall C had quite a few light "wargames" (e.g. Axis & Allies) being played in the back of both halls.  And I saw, and personally participated in, "wargames" in the roped-off game area in Hall C.  Perhaps a strategy moving forward would be to group these activities together?  While the overlap wouldn't be 100%, I bet someone interested in A&A could be enticed to play a medium/light complexity WW2 game.  After all, it's a common refrain to hear A&A being a person's first foray into "wargames".  Likewise, there's a lot of overlap between hex-and-counter wargamers and minis wargamers.  There's an opportunity for cross pollination there as well. 

So, rather than having all of these activities spread out across the convention, clumping them together might give more presence and allow these disparate groups to discover each other.  Add a few open play tables and advertise the space as "the place" to play pick up games throughout the convention and suddenly a less traveled space becomes lively. 

Another angle would be to somehow cross promote with "wargames" being promoted in Hall B.  Both Dust 1947 and BattleTech seemed to be getting a lot of interest at the con (to be fair both games, especially Dust, look really cool).  GF9 had a busy booth with a bunch of minis for sale - one for a game called "Tanks" which I presume to be some sort of "wargame." Again, not 100% of people who like to play battle games with cool minis will necessarily be interested in playing other sorts of "wargames", but there's certainly some amount of overlap (I'm in that group). 

Use Origins to highlight the wide rainbow of "wargames."  Entice the Euro crowd with euro-style "wargames" (e.g. Root, COIN, others that include "wargame"-style player conflict).  Catch eyes with cool minis.  Impress with huge hex maps with stacks of chits.  Hopefully if you build it, they will come.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: Bison on July 07, 2019, 09:57:23 AM
Good insights Adam. Co-locating the wargames play areas makes a lot of sense and could help to bring gamers with similar tastes together.
Title: Re: "Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 25, 2019, 09:08:12 AM
FWIW, the co-location of our area, and a good chunk of minis wargamers, is in serious consideration for next year.

There's a variety of plans and ideas being kicked around, as the new GAMA leadership seems keen on giving us some latitude for re-invention.

As things get confirmed with them, we'll be able to discuss further, but look for it in the Origins 2020 thread (https://www.armchairdragoons.com/forum/index.php?topic=993), as this one has gone way off the rails, and isn't really the intuitive place to go find info about Origins.