"Brave Little Belgium " Undone by the Wit of "The Dice Tower"

[Cyrano]

One of my favorite wargame channels. Why? Hail Ceasar is a game I want to build and paint armies for some day. It’s just a dad and son playing and enjoying a game. Minis are painted but not the best quality. It doesn’t matter. They are having fun and that’s ultimately what matter from my stand point.

Yep. 100%.

[Cyrano]

The place to be is Origins, if the goal is to promote the hobby.

Nah, it really isn't. That's the point and what much discussion has been about. There aren't very many wargamers at Origins. There are fewer and fewer vendors. This year there were three vendors selling wargames, total. Most of the vendors we've worked with in the past have decided to not do Origins anymore.

Our best attended events are the CPX and Kriegsspiel sessions. Most of the players for both of those are repeats.

And this is where I'm at too, I fear.

Can't be much for wargaming if even the vendors don't come.

That started me thinking about why the vendors don't come.

If the optimists are correct -- and may you please be -- they've decided to market to their niche in niche ways.  Shoot, even GMT wasn't there themselves.

And here, I think, is why I'm so down:  Gen Con and Origins were wargaming conventions.  Brant and I proved that over and over again beyond honest argument in "Dragon Up the Past".  I remember vividly when we were run out of Gen Con.  And now Origins has driven away too.  Doubly difficult is that it drove away just as this nerdy gaming thing was really taking off.  Change comes, but I've been at this so long, I'll forgive myself a bit of nostalgia for the good old days.  I do think, though, that I need to Elsa on this one.

[Bison]

Fair enough. I’m honestly just curious and not looking for drama at all. From personal experience, I will just say I find that they are a good model of COIN from a strategic to operational level. That being said I don’t overly enjoy playing them. I only have one left in my collection and that is fire in the lake. IMHO the best one in the series. 😁

Definitely a discussion for another thread but I honestly feel the level of war a game models has some of the most direct influence on how different people perceive and how receptive they are to a war game.

[mirth]

My opinion is subjective and, in the grand scheme, meaningless, but it is what I think.  Marco gave me the very fine definition that a "wargame makes me feel like I'm playing a wargame".  COIN games do not.  They are excellent (most of them) war-themed euros.  I own all but one of them.  They are not wargames to me.

That's how I feel about them,  "war-themed euros". And I like the series and am glad it has been successful.

[bayonetbrant]

Do we even want to go to a con? Why not rent a cabin or a block of rooms and meet up, like a club, to play games and hang out? If you ask the team from Origins the number one reason they go, the answer is always to hang out with other people from ACD. Why insist on interrupting the gaming and hanging out with ancillary stuff?

this is already in progress, with a tentative target date in late February.  I've already got calls in to a couple of hotels about a package deal of a ballroom / banquet room set up for games, plus about 8 rooms as a block rate and I'll let folks know as soon as I find out about pricing from them.


We're pretty small potatoes for most of the hotels I've reached out to, but it's a big step for us.

[bob48]

OK, I can fix you up in a hotel where I can get a big discount on a gaming room and rooms......................

[bayonetbrant]

OK, I can fix you up in a hotel where I can get a big discount on a gaming room and rooms......................

and the plane tickets... ?   

[bob48]

Y'can't expect me to do everything...........

[bayonetbrant]

And here, I think, is why I'm so down:  Gen Con and Origins were wargaming conventions.  Brant and I proved that over and over again beyond honest argument in "Dragon Up the Past".  I remember vividly when we were run out of Gen Con.  And now Origins has driven away too.  Doubly difficult is that it drove away just as this nerdy gaming thing was really taking off.  Change comes, but I've been at this so long, I'll forgive myself a bit of nostalgia for the good old days.  I do think, though, that I need to Elsa on this one.

I think one of the reasons that you and I and Gary and Avery are still high on Origins is that while we are there primarily for wargaming, there's plenty of other gaming there that also holds our interest, whether old-school RPGs, or something with the kids, or just goofy merchandise like the unicorn game you were looking for in 2018.


For someone who is more single-tracked into wargaming, I get the dwindling appeal, but I'm not quite yet ready to surrender if we can evolve our model and better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers.

[mirth]

Some of you should seriously consider Huzzah in May. It's a sweet little con that is primarily focused on historical minis wargaming. The venue is nice and you can stay right there for pretty cheap (the room rates are about 115/night for a double).

Maine is quite nice in mid-May and there's plenty to see/do in the immediate area so a lot of people make it a family weekend.

[panzerde]

My opinion is subjective and, in the grand scheme, meaningless, but it is what I think.  Marco gave me the very fine definition that a "wargame makes me feel like I'm playing a wargame".  COIN games do not.  They are excellent (most of them) war-themed euros.  I own all but one of them.  They are not wargames to me.

That's how I feel about them,  "war-themed euros". And I like the series and am glad it has been successful.

I'm on the "war-themed euro" side of things and don't particularly like to play them.  Which isn't to say they aren't good games, or that people who do play them are somehow unjustified in enjoying them.

Which is the maddening bit I was referencing above.  Sure, there are bad games out there, but they're few and far between. Usually, being bad has more to do with bad rules editing or crappy components than anything else. There seem to be more than a few people though, who because they don't like a particular game feel compelled to declare it and everyone who plays it "bad."

Which was the start of this thread.  No problem that the reviewer didn't like "Brave Little Belgium" because he doesn't like wargames. I don't like broccoli, but that doesn't mean I need to trash every restaurant that sells it. I don't like the COIN games, but that doesn't mean that GMT is wrong to sell them or for all the people I saw playing them at Origins to be wrong/bad for playing them. I lean heavily toward Kriegsspiel-style games, but I get that they aren't everyone's cup of tea. Say that, not "Kriegsspiel sucks!"

Different strokes and all. I think it's an interesting discussion as to why people like certain games and dislike others. Unfortunately, "I like Battlefront because..." too often turns into "Battlefront sucks and is evil and you suck for liking it!" most places. (That's an example, I haven't played a Battlefront game for years now).

[Cyrano]

My first stop would be Historicon as I've not been in years, although the return to Valley Forge makes Cold Wars very appealing.

My beloved is less than enamored of the location of Historicon vis-a-vis other things to do.

[mirth]

I like to bust balls about "real wargames", but I honestly don't care what people like to play. I know the kinds of games I enjoy and I gravitate toward those styles.

Within my local group, I play a lot of things that aren't my preference, but as part of a "club" you support the other guys' interests. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy the figs or rules, but I am more than happy to push someone else's lead and give something new a try.

[panzerde]

For someone who is more single-tracked into wargaming, I get the dwindling appeal, but I'm not quite yet ready to surrender if we can evolve our model and better concentrate fire on supporting (and bringing in more) existing wargamers.

I certainly don't read Jim's comments as him being "high on Origins."

And given that you don't go play any of that stuff you mentioned...

[Bison]

The question for me  when it comes to a war game is simply “what are you trying to model?” and “how are you modeling it?”

Fog of war? Synchronization of formations in a battle? Political and military efforts? Replicate a historical battle or operation? Variation through dice or cards? Etc...