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Wargaming => The Modern World => Topic started by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 09:35:50 AM

Title: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 09:35:50 AM
After Barth mentioned their sale, I took a look over at their website to see what's there, and 1995 caught my eye, as modern warfare is stuff I really enjoy.

https://www.consimsltd.com/shop/1995 (https://www.consimsltd.com/shop/1995)

Here's the rub....

Quote
The OOB includes a well researched collection of available divisions and air assets. The Russian OOB is based off the militia which attacked Grozny in 1994. The JNA is accurately represented though assumed to be at full strength. Numerous other Balkan and NATO nations are represented. 1995 focuses more on maneuver and less on chrome as there are no special counters, but lots of units instead.

let's look at the counters (https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5b90b23370e8025850d365cd/1557415172789-A4MX81CGHPGQGAXD9YV0/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kG9Dsonrkjw8Kw9Zo2idDlRZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIp4Zrahl-uCSN057bEhi5riHkJqL4yIqRQWCjC2lL9w4/cccc.PNG), though (attachment include my notes)

the US maneuver units (which I know really well) have designation problems everywhere, especially for claiming to be a "well researched collection of available divisions and air assets"

The 1st Cav, 1st ID(M), 10th MTN are all actually designated as brigades in their symbology.  And 1st Cav, despite the name, is an armor division.

502, 327, 187 IN are all designated as regiments, when they are, in fact, not stand-alone regiments.

Digression follows:
The US Army uses historical regimental designations as a part of the battalion names, but the battalions are not assigned to "regiments" but maneuver brigades within divisions.  Frequently, this resulted in brigades with battalions from multiple "regiments" within a single brigade, but some divisions (notable 82nd/101st) would usually have all the maneuver battalions within a single brigade hold the same historical 'parent' regiment.  So, for example, 1st Brigade, 82nd Airborne division today has 2 infantry battalions (1-504, 2-504) but that's not the "504th Infantry Regiment" because that brigade also include 2-501 IN, 3-73 CAV, and 3-319 FA, among others.


At the time of the game, the 3 battalions of the 502nd that were still on the rolls were all in an infantry brigade together at Ft Campbell as a part of the 101st.  Ditto the 3 battalions of the 327th.  However, there were another 3 battalions of the 502nd that had just recently cased their colors from Berlin Brigade, which just served to bolster the case that idea of the 502nd as an independent regiment was inaccurate.

187th was even more problematic, as even if you're trying to use the regimental names as a proxy for their respective maneuver brigades, the 187th shouldn't have the same strength as the other two.  In 1995, one of their battalions was deployed to the Sinai as a peacekeeping/observer unit and actually helped in the recovery efforts following the earthquake on the peninsula that Fall.  So they were underpowered compared to the other 3 brigades (er... "regiments"?) in their division.

Moreover, if we're considering that the 3 "regiments" of airborne infantry are the ground maneuver brigades of the 101st, what of their aviation brigade?  You could make the case that the artillery are rolled into the regimental counters, but their aviation brigade is a standalone unit.

Finally, if you're going to parcel out the 3 maneuver brigades of the 101st into 3 separate counters, designated by their regimental/brigade unit IDs (wrong IDs, but justifiable as a game decision to parcel out the units to smaller echelons on the map) then why are you designating individual maneuver brigades of 3 separate divisions with the divisional ID instead of the brigade ID within the division?
And if the shooting is going hot with the Russians rolling in, why are you deploying 1 brigade from Germany, 1 brigade from New York, and 1 brigade from Texas, instead of the other 3 brigades in Germany, the brigade in Italy, or, uh...  any of the brigades that were actually in Bosnia in 1995 (namely, the ones from 1st AR)?


And that's just the units I happen to know....

But here's the thing - you're telling me that your "OOB includes a well researched collection of available divisions and air assets" when there's something wrong with almost literally every single US unit in the game.

If you're that far off on just the 6 counters that I know off the top of my head, how far off are you going to be on the other 90-odd counters?


What initially caught my interest now has me shaking my head wondering what else is wrong in this game.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 09:42:45 AM


 :tickedoff: :tickedoff:  the more I think about this one, though, the more pissed I get about it....




Damn near everything you need for the US OOB in this time period is open source in about 80 different places.  It's such an easy thing to research that it seems insane that it would be this wrong....   >:(
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 09:48:17 AM
You should let them know directly.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 09:55:43 AM
You should let them know directly.


I would've, if they'd followed thru on their forum we set up for them here...
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 10:09:49 AM
Go tell 'em here

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2292985/minor-erratta
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 10:12:28 AM
Go tell 'em here

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2292985/minor-erratta (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2292985/minor-erratta)


I put my feedback in their support thread on CSW
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:20:06 AM
I'm buying it!
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 10:23:24 AM
 :ROFL:

Do an AAR! I'm sure Brant would love that  :notme:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:30:01 AM
I'll start with a nice unboxing video
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 10:33:50 AM
Go ahead!  I mean, look, ultimately, it's their game.  We should measure by what they claim.  If it turns out the research isn't great, but it's a fun game, then you've got a fun game.
It might not live up to it's own marketing hype, but if you enjoy it, go for it.

To me, there's just big disconnect between what they claim, and what we see based on what they've shown us.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 10:37:38 AM
You should let them know directly.


http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1ddf9b2d/936 (http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1ddf9b2d/936)
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:38:29 AM
Can you go over the counters of the Barbarossa games and ruin those too? I'd rather not be tempted to buy them.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 10:41:44 AM
Can you go over the counters of the Barbarossa games and ruin those too? I'd rather not be tempted to buy them.


No, because I don't know/care enough about the WW2 East Front to give a rip.


Email Lou Coatney - I'm sure he could point it all out for you though
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 10:41:51 AM
Damn  :2funny:

At least the guy seemed open to your feedback Brant.  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:45:11 AM
He's going to send you a free copy?!

Damn. It pays to bitch.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:47:26 AM
Considering how quickly and nicely he responded, I may have to consider buying the Barbarossa games.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:49:23 AM
I'm also going to look for games I can trash to get free copies.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 10:50:36 AM
I think you can suspend disbelief in SOME games, just because they're represented ahistorically (such as VPG's The Barbarossa Campaign, which uses generic units). But yeah if you're going to claim historic accuracy you better have it because the mulleted subsegment of our hobby will get their Naruto boxers in a twist.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 10:52:55 AM
I give the guy a lot of credit for owning it and promising to fix it. He seems like a class act. I'm seriously going to look at the other games now.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 10:58:17 AM
I give the guy a lot of credit for owning it and promising to fix it. He seems like a class act. I'm seriously going to look at the other games now.

Can't dispute that at all. Not many companies own up to their errors and even fewer attempt to rectify them.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 18, 2019, 01:53:49 PM
I had been looking at their '1864 On to Jutland' game
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 01:57:03 PM
I had been looking at their '1864 On to Jutland' game

Check the unit designations on the counters.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 18, 2019, 02:02:02 PM
Ooh yeah - good idea - now where did I put my magnifying glass..................
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 02:02:35 PM
I had been looking at their '1864 On to Jutland' game

Check the unit designations on the counters.


I mean, he was there, right?
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 02:04:50 PM
Bob: (looks at counter with magnifying glass)

Also Bob: "'ere now, that lot there in the 4th Division, 12th Brigade, 88th Regiment, 6th Battalion, 12th Company, 1st Platoon, B Squad, they got one too many gold buttons on their sleeves"

Oh wait, that's Cyrano

 :2funny:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 18, 2019, 02:11:09 PM
All joking apart, they have several games which are of interest to me; Solferino for one, and a couple on the Franco-Prussian war..
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 02:11:42 PM
I do like the Tet one myself as well as the three Barbarossa ones...
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 18, 2019, 02:14:04 PM
I tried not to look at the Barbarossa ones, but the temptation was too great  :(
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 02:19:43 PM
I tried not to look at the Barbarossa ones, but the temptation was too great  :(

Unboxing vid 

Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 18, 2019, 02:22:22 PM
All ready seen it...thanks :nolisten:

Quite a large number of their games are pre-order.

Just sayin'
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 02:25:55 PM
I have to admit I am tempted. The free shipping is nice.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 02:27:32 PM
The Afrika Korps one looks good too...the first one. Not so much interested in Torch or the third one.

But I still have Dark Sands to look at...lol.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Barthheart on October 18, 2019, 02:28:56 PM
I have to admit I am tempted. The free shipping is nice.

Me too.....  :idiot2:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 02:30:30 PM
I have to admit I am tempted. The free shipping is nice.

Me too.....  :idiot2:

I have all three in my cart.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Barthheart on October 18, 2019, 02:33:03 PM
I have to admit I am tempted. The free shipping is nice.

Me too.....  :idiot2:

I have all three in my cart.

Me too....   :D
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Barthheart on October 18, 2019, 02:34:05 PM
Wait! Brant get us a review copy!!!  :D
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 18, 2019, 02:35:26 PM
I have to admit I am tempted. The free shipping is nice.

Me too.....  :idiot2:

I have all three in my cart.

Me too....   :D


(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlCVuoqZU63Ug2k/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 18, 2019, 02:39:45 PM
Wait! Brant get us a review copy!!!  :D

Pretty sure they love Brant now  :D
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bbmike on October 18, 2019, 02:41:33 PM
I have to admit I am tempted. The free shipping is nice.

Me too.....  :idiot2:

I have all three in my cart.

Me too....   :D
(https://media.giphy.com/media/QQoRQ2Gf1i7MA/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Barthheart on October 18, 2019, 02:46:19 PM
You know you want it too.  :rockon:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 02:49:15 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.nJLex89gGp2HqPYym5Ld3wHaFn%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bbmike on October 18, 2019, 02:57:02 PM
Hmm, I think I knew that guy...
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 02:58:03 PM
Ha! I did too.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 18, 2019, 03:01:49 PM
I'd like to see this get printed;

https://store.lnlpublishing.com/series/pre-orders/trial-of-strength-second-edition
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Staggerwing on October 18, 2019, 06:11:29 PM
Someone should photoshop the AD website onto that monitor
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bbmike on October 18, 2019, 06:40:31 PM
That IS the AD website on that monitor.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: mirth on October 18, 2019, 06:42:05 PM
It's the elusive 'front page'
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bbmike on October 18, 2019, 07:22:23 PM
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Staggerwing on October 18, 2019, 07:37:09 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/full/1708132096/h887737D9/)
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bbmike on October 18, 2019, 07:49:10 PM
Please don't post pics like that unless it's Halloween.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: Staggerwing on October 19, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
Please don't post pics like that unless it's Halloween.

Hey,  halloween's just around the corner!

I'm thinking about making that my forum avatar over at GH. Think they'll like it?
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bbmike on October 19, 2019, 10:07:58 AM
 :2thumbs:
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 19, 2019, 11:11:18 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/6e/cd/1f6ecdb4ddb154548826953786bba1b9.jpg)
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 19, 2019, 11:42:06 AM
Dial it down a notch there buddy
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: panzerde on October 19, 2019, 12:49:17 PM
All joking apart, they have several games which are of interest to me; Solferino for one, and a couple on the Franco-Prussian war..

I have all of those pre-ordered. I've been waiting...a long time now.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: panzerde on October 19, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Considering how quickly and nicely he responded, I may have to consider buying the Barbarossa games.

Ray is a very nice guy, and he wants to do well. He's been banging games out at a ferocious pace though, and my experience with him is that he's not what you might call "detail oriented." As someone doing game developer things myself these days, the gent he has doing the developer role ought to be catching things that he isn't.

Ray is very good about owning mistakes and trying to get them corrected. His heart is in the right place. I think he'll eventually be pretty successful and have some good games out there. He has some growing and maturing to do, but he's very humble and if you catch him at the right part of his manic cycle, eager to learn.
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bob48 on October 19, 2019, 01:31:49 PM
All joking apart, they have several games which are of interest to me; Solferino for one, and a couple on the Franco-Prussian war..

I have all of those pre-ordered. I've been waiting...a long time now.

Why does that not surprise me  ;D
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on November 05, 2021, 08:49:25 AM
OK, so I took the plunge on this one and picked it up, despite my problems with the OOB


I want to help out some smaller companies, now that I'm in a position to pick up a few games, and they're one of the ones I want to support.

I'll let y'all know what I think
Title: Re: 1995 - CSL
Post by: bayonetbrant on January 27, 2022, 02:25:48 PM
https://www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/reviews/unbox/unboxingday-1995-by-csl/