Armchair Dragoons Forums

Wargaming => Age of Gunpowder => Topic started by: bob48 on September 02, 2019, 08:46:53 AM

Title: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 02, 2019, 08:46:53 AM
Played some of this on Vassal with panzerde and its a very good system. Its a development of the 'Hold the Line' system, published by Worthington Games (by the same designer), and now published as H&M by Hollandspiele.

Lots of additional stuff is planed for the series and it will eventually cover a considerable period of time and deal with topics not generally covered by other games. Well worth looking at if you are interested in predominately18th century warfare.

https://hollandspiele.com/collections/horse-musket/products/horse-musket-dawn-of-an-era
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on September 02, 2019, 08:57:29 AM
Interesting. I do like ‘Hold the Line’.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: mirth on September 02, 2019, 10:45:03 AM
Tempting, but I am on a purchasing hiatus.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: besilarius on September 02, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
Ben King published a neat set of minaiture rules for the Marlborough period, b ut I'm having an old codger moment and cannot recall the title.
Had very detailed rules for a siege, which was a very different game.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 02, 2019, 11:34:31 AM
So what are some of the key differences btw H&M and Hold The Line?

What does H&M do better/worse than other games in a similar period?
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on September 02, 2019, 11:39:05 AM
I'll let Doug answer that, as he is much more familiar with both games and the period - I'm just a novice in that respect.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on September 02, 2019, 12:59:10 PM
Tempting, but I am on a purchasing hiatus.

I'm trying that hiatus thing myself but shields are failing!

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ov9k9Ss9N3wO6FQ7C/giphy.gif?cid=790b76110f0e37540fc2264b6c936fc80c7fb58f8b70a929&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: mirth on September 02, 2019, 01:04:22 PM
Tempting, but I am on a purchasing hiatus.

I'm trying that hiatus thing myself but shields are failing!

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ov9k9Ss9N3wO6FQ7C/giphy.gif?cid=790b76110f0e37540fc2264b6c936fc80c7fb58f8b70a929&rid=giphy.gif)

I think I have a bit of a head start on you
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on September 02, 2019, 01:54:42 PM
So what are some of the key differences btw H&M and Hold The Line?

Horse & Musket is an evolution of a specific set of the Hold the Line rules; Frederick's War. HtL:FW covers the Seven Years War and nothing else. Horse and Musket currently covers from 1680 to 1763, including not just European conflicts but conflicts in the Middle East and North America. At present, the game and expansions include over 70 scenarios. There are battles as large as Blenheim and Neerwinden and as small as La Prairie and Sedgemoor.

The mechanics of H&M are similar to HtL:FW, but have been streamlined. National Characteristics and Special Scenario Rules add chrome to each scenario to reflect the unique circumstances of each battle and period. The base game and the two expansions use different player aid cards and charts to reflect the improving characteristics of the formations and technology of the period. French troops, for example have "Cadenced Marching" in later scenarios which allows them improved movement, while Prussians have "Steel Ramrods" which improves their fire combat capabilities.

All modules make use of a common set of units, a base map, and map overlays. This makes it possible to build any scenario covering and battle you'd like during the period. So, in addition to the included scenarios, players can easily modify scenarios or create their own.

What does H&M do better/worse than other games in a similar period?

You mean the dozens of other games covering the Nine Years War, or the War of Austrian Succession?

Obviously, one of the things H&M does better is that it's covering battles and periods no one else covers. You are simply not going to find many of the scenarios in this game anywhere else. This afternoon I think I'm going to play Neerwinden, a battle during the Nine Years War, for example. The only other treatment I've ever seen of this battle is a user-created scenario in Pike & Shot Campaigns and in some miniatures rules. I suspect some of the Middle Eastern battles don't appear anywhere else.

There are three key mechanics that I think make H&M really shine. First, unit capabilities are measured in Morale Points (MP) and not strength points. As combat happens, units lose MPs. Certainly casualties are happening, but during this period combat effectiveness often depended more on training and tenacity than on sheer numbers. When a unit loses all of its MPs it breaks and is removed from the map. Units can regain MPs by being rallied. This much more accurately reflects the nature of combat during the era than simply counting bodies.

Next is the concept of Command Action Points, or CAP. In each scenario each side is given a base level of CAP. CAP is spent to order units to take actions, like moving or firing, or rallying units that have lost MP. Nothing can be done without expending CAP, and there will never be enough CAP to do everything. At the beginning of each turn, each side rolls a D6 and receives anywhere from one to three extra CAP. CAP represents the command structure and capability of each side. For those familiar with Command & Colors, CAP serves a similar purpose to the cards used in that game. but isn't subject to some of the restrictions that can happen from not having a useful card.

Finally, leaders are vital. Each side will have at least one, and usually several leaders. One leader is designated the army commander. Each leader has a rating from zero to four, four being a military genius and zero being, well, a zero.  Leaders contribute to morale checks, activation, and rally. Army commanders can spend CAP at the beginning of a turn and "steal initiative" or reverse the turn order, giving their side back-to-back turns if they pull it off.

In combination, these three mechanics create powerful narrative in the game. In the game Bob and I played, for example, Bob had to cross a muddy ditch (the Bussex rhine) with his Royalist infantry to close the distance to my rebel militia. His infantry were in line formation, giving them better combat capabilities, but requiring them to perform a morale check if they moved into the ditch, possibly losing a morale point.

Fortunately for Bob, this infantry was commanded by John Churchill, Earl of Marlborough, one of the very few leaders in the game rated a "four." Bob moved Marlborough to take personal command of a unit of Elite Infantry - representing the 1st Battalion of the Foot Guards in this case,  and then moved them into the ditch. Normally, the Elite Infantry would have to roll their MP or lower on a D6 - in this case a "3," meaning he had a 50% chance of failing and losing an MP. Bob really didn't want to lose an MP. The rebels only need to score three VPs to win the battle, he'd already lost one, and losing an Elite Infantry unit would cost him two and the battle.

But with Marlborough in personal command, Bob received a +4 on his morale check! He couldn't possibly fail and lose an MP. And so, Marlborough and the 1/Foot Guards stormed across the Bussex rhine into the very teeth of Monmouth's rebel militia!

Who, as it turned out, hadn't been softened up enough yet.

Bob unfortunately hadn't managed to move up any of his artillery yet, and although he was poised to envelop both rebel flanks, he hadn't managed to do so. More importantly, Bob hadn't saved any CAP from the turn he moved across the rhine to attack, and so couldn't have his army commander, Feversham, attempt to seize initiative and give him back-to-back turns. Had he done so the 1/Foot Guards and Marlborough would have been able to fire a terrific volley into the rebel militia - Elite Infantry at range on hit one a D10 roll of 7-9, they receive a +1 DRM for being in line, and they roll four dice rather than the normal three. The militia battalion facing the 1/Foot Guards only had two MP - so two hits would have eliminated them. Bob could have them moved the 1/FG into the vacated hex, splitting the rebel line.

Instead, since he didn't get back-to-back turns, the rebel artillery fired and hit, costing the 1/FG one MP. Then in an action that must have been inspired as much by desperation and fear as any of the few days of training they received, the rebel militia fired a terrific volley into the 1/FG. Rolling two D10, they amazingly managed to roll two nines, which are automatic hits. That was enough for the 1/FG, who broke and streamed back across the Bussex rhine and winning the battle for the rebel Duke of Monmouth!

Now, very few games of H&M will come down to a single roll like that. It is indicative though of the nature of the system that it can capture the implications of the situation at the time of Monmouth's Rebellion that even fairly minor losses on the part of James II's small Royal Army could have lost them the battle. This was in fact exactly what Monmouth was attempting when he launched his night attack at Sedgemoor. Historically, it didn't work - but it almost did. H&M captures that, using a blank base map, terrain overlays, generic units, and thirteen pages of rules, the last three of which are all optional rules.

The series will eventually cover from the beginning of the Thirty Years War in the 1620s to the latter half of the 19th Century.  "Volume 0," Horse and Matchlock will be released in late September or October. This volume covers the Thirty Years War, the Franco Spanish War, the English Civil War, The Franco Dutch War, and the Scanian War with 20 new scenarios and a rules expansion to cover the unique characteristics of armies of this period. I'm very excited for this expansion, since it covers some of my favorite battles and leaders.

Full disclosure: for about the past year I've been the series developer for Horse & Musket. Sean Chick is the designer, Johan Brattström is the designer for Horse & Matchlock, David Fagland did the really superb Vassal modules, and Hollanspiele is the publisher. While my opinion is certainly not unbiased, I agreed to get involved with the production of the game because it does such a fantastic job of portraying the period in a really playable way. The core game can be learned in about five minutes, and it won't take much longer to set up a scenario. Despite its simple appearance, there is a lot happening due to the interaction of the simple mechanics.

I am, and will always be a huge fan of Ben Hull's Musket & Pike series. I'll play them at the drop of a hat and you can bet I'll pre-order every one of his new series that is starting with a Blenmheim game. H&M offers what I think is a faster playing, simpler alternative to that series that also currently covers a broader period. I don't see the two series as in competition at all. Each offers a different approach and different take on the wars of the 17th and 18th centuries that anyone interested in this period will enjoy.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on September 02, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
panzerde!

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ov9k9Ss9N3wO6FQ7C/giphy.gif?cid=790b76110f0e37540fc2264b6c936fc80c7fb58f8b70a929&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on September 02, 2019, 03:29:59 PM
So what are some of the key differences btw H&M and Hold The Line?

What does H&M do better/worse than other games in a similar period?

There! Does that answer your questions? ;)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: mirth on September 02, 2019, 03:37:11 PM
So what are some of the key differences btw H&M and Hold The Line?

What does H&M do better/worse than other games in a similar period?

There! Does that answer your questions? ;)

Was a little light on details
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on September 02, 2019, 03:40:59 PM
panzerde!

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ov9k9Ss9N3wO6FQ7C/giphy.gif?cid=790b76110f0e37540fc2264b6c936fc80c7fb58f8b70a929&rid=giphy.gif)

You know you want it...
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Barthheart on September 02, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
So what are some of the key differences btw H&M and Hold The Line?

What does H&M do better/worse than other games in a similar period?

There! Does that answer your questions? ;)

Was a little light on details

Really? I found it quite Prattonian in verbiage.....
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on September 02, 2019, 09:56:59 PM
Really? I found it quite Prattonian in verbiage.....

Don't make me say "Zuckerian" to you again.  :tickedoff:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Cyrano on September 02, 2019, 10:36:52 PM
Really? I found it quite Prattonian in verbiage.....

Don't make me say "Zuckerian" to you again.  :tickedoff:

Stop it.  You didn’t say it the first time.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Barthheart on September 03, 2019, 06:21:38 AM
 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on September 05, 2019, 04:52:58 PM
PnP option - $15.....................
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on November 18, 2019, 02:25:01 PM
Yesterday, Doug and I played the 'Fleurus' scenario from H&M on Vassal; Doug, resplendently attired as Luxembourg (the general that is, not the country) and in command of the Bourbon forces, knocked seven bells out of my Grand Alliance army led by the ineffectual Waldeck.

After some  initial prancing about, the Spanish units which were entrusted with the right flank, decided that enough was enough and wen't home.

By now, Doug had 4 of the required victory points required, and it was clear that the Alliance forces were faced with being enveloped and annihilated; therefore, I took the only course of action left....and surrendered to the mercy of the French.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on November 18, 2019, 02:31:43 PM
Yesterday, Doug and I played the 'Fleurus' scenario from H&M on Vassal; Doug, resplendently attired as Luxembourg (the general that is, not the country) and in command of the Bourbon forces, knocked seven bells out of my Grand Alliance army led by the ineffectual Waldeck.

After some  initial prancing about, the Spanish units which were entrusted with the right flank, decided that enough was enough and wen't home.

By now, Doug had 4 of the required victory points required, and it was clear that the Alliance forces were faced with being enveloped and annihilated; therefore, I took the only course of action left....and surrendered to the mercy of the French.

To be fair, this is not only the historical outcome but almost the only outcome unless the French player is completely drunk. Poor Bob's Spaniards did their Latin best, but were simply outnumbered!
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on November 18, 2019, 02:32:54 PM
Good game, though, and a very rewarding and subtle system.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on November 18, 2019, 03:16:19 PM
Yesterday, Doug and I played the 'Fleurus' scenario from H&M on Vassal; Doug, resplendently attired as Luxembourg (the general that is, not the country) and in command of the Bourbon forces, knocked seven bells out of my Grand Alliance army led by the ineffectual Waldeck.

After some  initial prancing about, the Spanish units which were entrusted with the right flank, decided that enough was enough and wen't home.

By now, Doug had 4 of the required victory points required, and it was clear that the Alliance forces were faced with being enveloped and annihilated; therefore, I took the only course of action left....and surrendered to the mercy of the French.

To be fair, this is not only the historical outcome but almost the only outcome unless the French player is completely drunk. Poor Bob's Spaniards did their Latin best, but were simply outnumbered!

Challenge accepted!
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on November 18, 2019, 04:08:59 PM
I really want to do this and stream it to Youtube. And I mean, really, really drunk.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: besilarius on November 19, 2019, 07:20:26 AM
Didn't the russian Marshal Kutuzov travel with a wagon of female "cousins" and multiple supply wagons of liquid refreshment?
Think he said that his performance in battle was improved by performing with all of his cousins the night before.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Cyrano on November 19, 2019, 11:04:10 AM
Didn't the russian Marshal Kutuzov travel with a wagon of female "cousins" and multiple supply wagons of liquid refreshment?
Think he said that his performance in battle was improved by performing with all of his cousins the night before.

Sanity was no prerequisite for Napoleonic command.

Blucher once had a spell where he was convinced he had been impregnated by an elephant.  During the 1813 campaign he was said to have ranted about Napoleon surreptitiously having the floors of his room heated to make it uncomfortable.  This despite being in a campaign tent.

On my team, Murat, well, was Murat.  And he was out that he wasn't made King of Poland.

 
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on December 03, 2019, 05:45:08 PM
Just finished the 'Vienna' scenario. A crushing defeat for the Turks!

Heads will undoubtedly roll.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bayonetbrant on April 14, 2020, 12:31:20 PM
For those of you on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/notes/george-nap/wargame-replay-f%C3%B6rd%C3%B6md-polsk-kavalleri-klissow-19-july-1702-horse-and-musket-daw/3018212378235097/
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on April 14, 2020, 12:32:15 PM
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bayonetbrant on April 14, 2020, 02:54:25 PM
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/87291280_610437289739264_980828706291318784_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=07e735&_nc_ohc=FNlqcQGFoJEAX9ndXm6&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=01bf28a8c380f1c5fd760f3107bb4fba&oe=5EBD7104)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on April 14, 2020, 03:06:11 PM
Very nice, but a bit on the large scale for bigger battles, unless you have a lot of space.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: 72z on April 15, 2020, 07:03:27 PM
Hoping you don't mind: I shared that replay on my own site's FB page. 

You know I had had Hollandspiele on my Wargamevault follow list for updates, and  -well I never got an update. I ended up spending my smallish Print and Play budget -so have to wait until it builds back up (different times at the moment) -   but I was looking to have picked up Horse and Matchlock back around Christmas time but it hadn't been available then. 

I mean in one sense it is a moot point as I don't have a hobby for a little while longer.

Anyways ...


Picked up Vol II (Sport of Kings), and Horse & Matchlock - still won't be able to do anything with it for awhile.


 - Edited: Looking at the viability of doing some single image maps for scenarios.  And it is looking like I have to get in on the Annuals as they get loaded up.   
Also - whatever can stand in for regimental guns. Am sort of looking at maybe if it can convert to a block game, or even miniatures game. But - yeh software project stuff first- that's just what I have been throwing around in my head.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on April 17, 2020, 08:20:49 AM
The father of Sean Chick, designer of Horse & Musket, passed away last night from COVID-19. Please keep Sean in your thoughts.

Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bayonetbrant on April 17, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
The father of Sean Chick, designer of Horse & Musket, passed away last night from COVID-19. Please keep Sean in your thoughts.




shit.  that sucks.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on April 17, 2020, 08:44:57 AM
OH that is such bad news - my condolences to him.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on April 17, 2020, 10:53:51 AM
The father of Sean Chick, designer of Horse & Musket, passed away last night from COVID-19. Please keep Sean in your thoughts.




shit.  that sucks.

+100  :(
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: BanzaiCat on April 17, 2020, 11:10:01 AM
Oh, man. The poor guy.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on April 17, 2020, 11:36:27 AM
Oh, man. The poor guy.


Yeah, he said he'd be unavailable for awhile. That probably impacts you like it does me, in terms of game development.

Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: BanzaiCat on April 17, 2020, 11:41:01 AM
I've been behind since isolation started, anyway. I might reach out here in the next week or so since it's been a while since we've touched base.

I saw on Compass's site that the game is not on the 'upcoming' list yet (nor anywhere else) so I imagine it'll be late 2020 or probably more like next year.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Barthheart on May 14, 2020, 10:40:41 AM
Had a great learning game of this last night with Doug.
Very easy system to pick up and play. Plays fast but still has you thinking about how you want to accomplish your goals. Rules definitely not getting in the way of tactics and strategy.
Seems like a good "feel" for the era.
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on May 14, 2020, 10:49:00 AM
Yep, its a great system - as you say, easy to learn but has a lot of period flavour. Welcome to the club!  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on May 14, 2020, 10:50:54 AM
That was a ton of fun last night Vance. Looking forward to another game!
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Rambone on July 02, 2020, 03:02:47 PM
I am currently scraping together my pennies to buy the whole system soon!
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on July 02, 2020, 03:19:06 PM
I am currently scraping together my pennies to buy the whole system soon!


Hi Rambone! I think you'll be happy with it. I'm doing the development work on Volume IV right now, which will be out towards the end of the summer or in early fall.


Shoot me a note if you want to play some on vassal.

Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on July 02, 2020, 03:46:29 PM
It may have been mentioned elsewhere but is this on Tabletop Simulator?
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Cyrano on July 02, 2020, 03:56:14 PM
I’ve done two minis scenarios and have another finished. All for SYW.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 27, 2020, 04:25:00 PM
OK guys - what's the update on what's out next, and when?


any chance of getting a pre-release game of something to show off on SNF?
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on July 27, 2020, 04:44:09 PM
Doug is obviously the man to ask where H&M is concerned.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: mirth on July 27, 2020, 04:48:59 PM
Brant will troll anyone for content.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on July 28, 2020, 09:09:25 AM
Volume IV, which covers the American and French revolutions is in the works. It may come out this year, depending on Hollandspiele's publishing schedule. Annual 3 is also in the works.


I'd have to get Tom, Mary and Sean to sign off for us to do any preview of anything. I'll check when I get back from VA.

Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Cyrano on July 28, 2020, 01:53:23 PM
AmRev, you say?

This I can build the heck out of using Lazyboy's stuff that started it all.

Just say the word.

And, as you know, if you've got any SYW stuff in the Annual, we can do that too.

Folks seem to like the H&M streams...
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on July 28, 2020, 02:13:51 PM
AmRev, you say?
If you a guinea pig to teach it to just say the word.  :whistle:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on July 28, 2020, 02:24:04 PM
The H&M system is very good indeed.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Barthheart on July 28, 2020, 02:27:40 PM
It is. Doug taught me in one evening.
I still owe him another round....  :-[
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on July 28, 2020, 02:30:44 PM
I only have the base game, and that is the PnP version.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Barthheart on July 28, 2020, 02:33:38 PM
We played on VASSAL. It's got all the games.!  :D
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on July 28, 2020, 02:42:12 PM
I actually bought the print versions on Wargame Vault but have yet to take a look at them.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on July 28, 2020, 03:35:53 PM
We played on VASSAL. It's got all the games.!  :D

Aye, I have played it with Doug on Vassal and I do have all the mods.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on July 28, 2020, 03:55:47 PM
I'll see what I can do on some of the AmRev stuff. We have what might be my favorite mix of scenarios so far coming out in Vol IV.


It's been a blast to hang out and talk with people these past two days at the Williamsburg Armory and Magazine. I had about a twenty-minute talk with a wheelwright yesterday about the ubiquity and usefulness of two-wheeled carts over wagons for transporting supplies. I thn moved over to the leatherworker and he and I talked for probably thirty minutes about shoes and the difficulties the Americans faced early in the war due to not having any accountability in the logistics system. He recommended a book called Supplying Washington's Army that discusses the logistics of the Revolution. It all made me wish I'd had another Hollandspiele game, Supply Lines of the American Revolution with me.


Today at the Magazine there was a really great display of five three-pounders, one of which had a brass barrel, and one with a very accurate gun carriage. They also had laid out examples of round, canister, and case shot, and explained the use. Another demo was loading and firing a Land Pattern "Brown Bess" musket, after which the interpreter explained (at a high level) things like platoon firing. I ended up talking with him and mentioned With Zeal and Bayonets Only. He said that book was their bible.


I'm really very favorably impressed with Williamsburg and the staff. They have nice canned speeches, but the second you show more interest that can go deep. If they figure out you understand, you're suddenly having a very rewarding conversation. All of this, mind you, with everyone wearing masks in 100F heat, having just come out of a three-month shutdown. This is very much worth the trip.


Tomorrow is Jamestown and Thursday Yorktown. I'll get some pictures of the fortifications.


I should also mention that there are many, many fine examples of pebbled concrete throughout the town.

Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on July 28, 2020, 04:22:06 PM
Dude, you are only about an hour and a half from where I am! If it weren't for the plague I would be crashing your party right now.  8)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Cyrano on July 28, 2020, 05:22:16 PM
I'll see what I can do on some of the AmRev stuff. We have what might be my favorite mix of scenarios so far coming out in Vol IV.


It's been a blast to hang out and talk with people these past two days at the Williamsburg Armory and Magazine. I had about a twenty-minute talk with a wheelwright yesterday about the ubiquity and usefulness of two-wheeled carts over wagons for transporting supplies. I thn moved over to the leatherworker and he and I talked for probably thirty minutes about shoes and the difficulties the Americans faced early in the war due to not having any accountability in the logistics system. He recommended a book called Supplying Washington's Army that discusses the logistics of the Revolution. It all made me wish I'd had another Hollandspiele game, Supply Lines of the American Revolution with me.


Today at the Magazine there was a really great display of five three-pounders, one of which had a brass barrel, and one with a very accurate gun carriage. They also had laid out examples of round, canister, and case shot, and explained the use. Another demo was loading and firing a Land Pattern "Brown Bess" musket, after which the interpreter explained (at a high level) things like platoon firing. I ended up talking with him and mentioned With Zeal and Bayonets Only. He said that book was their bible.


I'm really very favorably impressed with Williamsburg and the staff. They have nice canned speeches, but the second you show more interest that can go deep. If they figure out you understand, you're suddenly having a very rewarding conversation. All of this, mind you, with everyone wearing masks in 100F heat, having just come out of a three-month shutdown. This is very much worth the trip.


Tomorrow is Jamestown and Thursday Yorktown. I'll get some pictures of the fortifications.


I should also mention that there are many, many fine examples of pebbled concrete throughout the town.

You likely deduced this -- or perhaps one of them told you -- but when I was in grad school I discovered a lot of threadbare MA and PhD candidates at W&M work there to make ends meet.  You can run into the next real expert if you play your cards right :).
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on July 28, 2020, 05:33:12 PM
Dude, you are only about an hour and a half from where I am! If it weren't for the plague I would be crashing your party right now.  8)
We're drinking sangria right now in an Italian place in town. Throw on a mask and head on over!
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: mirth on July 28, 2020, 05:51:59 PM
We're drinking sangria right now in an Italian place in town. Throw on a mask and head on over!

He's probably well into a refreshment and shouldn't be driving.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: panzerde on July 28, 2020, 06:05:25 PM
We're drinking sangria right now in an Italian place in town. Throw on a mask and head on over!

He's probably well into a refreshment and shouldn't be driving.
Which isn't a bad state to be in. Also why I'm pleased with the lovely bus system here.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Sir Slash on July 28, 2020, 10:59:10 PM
I LOVED Williamsburg Panzerde. Except for all the walking we did there. Also they have damned fine Chicken Wings in the restaurant there, called Gunpowder Wings I believe. Also loved Jamestown and Yorktown too, great places to visit.  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on August 18, 2021, 04:34:48 PM
Speaking of Horse & Musket IV, has anyone heard anything about the release date? It was originally slated for June but that didn't happen. I really, really want to send Hollandspiele some of my hard earned money.  8)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: Amabel on August 18, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
Speaking of Horse & Musket IV, has anyone heard anything about the release date? It was originally slated for June but that didn't happen. I really, really want to send Hollandspiele some of my hard earned money.  8)

It's either going to be just before or just after CSW Expo (though there may be some copies at the CSW Expo for sale even if the general release date comes after). Just got the proof copies of the new editions of all five games yesterday. New counters, new rulebooks, new player aids -- it's been a tremendous amount of work and it's gonna be nice finally getting it out there. And I'm in love with the new two-inch box for the new edition of the base game.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on August 18, 2021, 05:53:54 PM
(https://www.aarcentral.com/emoti/worship.gif)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on August 19, 2021, 06:23:56 AM
Sounds great. I played H&M (just the PnP version)  a lot, so this will be very welcome.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: LetsPlayHistory on August 24, 2021, 05:45:26 PM
Can't wait for Napoleonics!  :rockon:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bbmike on September 07, 2021, 08:21:51 AM
Speaking of Horse & Musket IV, has anyone heard anything about the release date? It was originally slated for June but that didn't happen. I really, really want to send Hollandspiele some of my hard earned money.  8)

It's out and I just sent Hollandspiele some of my hard earned money! (https://www.aarcentral.com/emoti/love2.gif)
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 07, 2021, 10:19:59 AM
Can't wait for Napoleonics!  :rockon:

early Napoleonics in the one that just dropped this week
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: LetsPlayHistory on September 19, 2021, 10:29:45 AM
Can't wait for Napoleonics!  :rockon:

early Napoleonics in the one that just dropped this week

Bien sur, monsieur! Just waiting for the PnP files, now.  :)
Title: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 21, 2021, 03:56:11 PM
Horse and Musket. (H&M)

The very popular game series designed by Sean Chick and published by Hollandspiel.

So far in the series, we have;

Vol I – Dawn of an Era 1683 – 1719
Vol II – Sport of Kings 1722 – 1747
Vol III – Crucible of War 1755 – 1762
Vol IV – Tides of revolution 1768 – 1796

In addition, there are now three scenario books, one covering Vol's I, II and II, and a scecond one with more scenarios for Vol's I, II and IV, whilst the new third one has twenty scenarios from 1639-1796. I also just noticed on BGG a call by the designer asking for submissions for the next scenario book.



For completeness, we'll include 'Horse and Matchlock – Prelude to an Era' 1620 – 1677.
So, lots of gaming scope here, and a system which seems to lend itself quite well to using minatures, especially when used with hex terrain, such as the Kallistra system.

I should also add that the base game and expansions are now in the process of being reissued to incorporate rules revisions and some changes to counter graphics; these games are identified as being the REDUX versions.

As usual, we ask; 'Who has it, who's played it, what do we like/dislike about the system, etc'
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 21, 2021, 04:25:03 PM
(https://www.aarcentral.com/emoti/love2.gif)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 21, 2021, 04:30:39 PM
in the interest of completeness on the H&M series, we've have Hollandspiele folks on the podcast a few times talking about this series (among their other fine games)


https://www.armchairdragoons.com/podcast/mentioned-in-dispatches-season-5-episode-7-horse-musket-hollandspiele/

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/podcast/mentioned-in-dispatches-s4e7-hollandspiele/

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/podcast/mentioned-in-dispatches-s4e1-the-horse-musket-series-with-a-side-of-irrational-nostalgia/

Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 21, 2021, 06:01:47 PM
Plus, My Own Worst Enemy has a couple of gameplay videos:




Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 21, 2021, 06:05:56 PM
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 24, 2021, 06:03:39 AM
I'm totally underwhelmed. I really thought that this was a really popular games system. >:(
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Hethwill on October 24, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
I'm totally underwhelmed. I really thought that this was a really popular games system. >:(

Maybe potential customers look at it and see another C&C with way lesser visuals ? Just a thought.

On the other hand is interesting that other Blue Panther 'partners' - White Dog Games and High Flying Dice - do have distribution in continental EU directly. Hollandspiel doesn't, only through UK Second Chance games. I have zero clue about business other than my own wallet though there's interest in the continent but not enough interest to pay the extra import fees, so we stick with what exists.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 25, 2021, 07:13:36 AM
You could be right.

The game also is a development of the earlier 'Hold the Line' I think, which was also designed by Mr.Chick and published by Worthington.

As far as I'm aware, Second Chance games is the sole stockist of Hollandspiele games in the UK.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 25, 2021, 08:28:07 AM
Not sure about 'way lesser visuals' other than not having blocks or cards. And that, IMO, is one of the better things about the Horse and Musket series.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Hethwill on October 25, 2021, 10:53:03 AM
Not sure about 'way lesser visuals' other than not having blocks or cards. And that, IMO, is one of the better things about the Horse and Musket series.

I will agree. Still "bang for buck" the bling wins. Hopefully some stores might order it here, but I totally doubt it. Even Agorajeux which is one of the stockists of everything blue panther doesn't even has H. in their lists.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 25, 2021, 11:17:11 AM
Unfortunate that it's not available over there. It is worth noting that you can purchase the Print 'n Play versions (except, for now I guess, H&M Volume IV) at Wargame Vault (https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/10383/Hollandspiele). In fact, a lot of Hollandspiele's catalog is available there. Probably not the best solution but better than nothing.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 25, 2021, 11:27:49 AM
I only have Vol I, and that as a PnP. Not ideal, and there is a bit of work involved to create it all, especially the counters, but good enough to be able to play it. Plus there is a pretty good Vassal mod available which is a viable alternative once you have the rules and scenario book.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Hethwill on October 25, 2021, 06:39:06 PM
I will keep my eyes open for a physical. I check every month in the continent stores, sometimes there's stock in the "used games".

Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 26, 2021, 10:31:16 AM
So what do people think of the Horse & Musket series compared to the Command and Colors series? The biggest difference in the two gamewise are the cards. I like the cards in C&C but I feel like a have more control over my forces in H&M. Also, it makes it easier to play H&M solo.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Hethwill on October 26, 2021, 03:09:08 PM
So what do people think of the Horse & Musket series compared to the Command and Colors series? The biggest difference in the two gamewise are the cards. I like the cards in C&C but I feel like a have more control over my forces in H&M. Also, it makes it easier to play H&M solo.

That is actually a great discussion to hear.

"Similar but nothing related Games!"
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: LetsPlayHistory on October 26, 2021, 06:21:35 PM
If any of you is wondering which scenarios are covered so far (and which might be in the future), I have a list (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2337771/overview-published-and-announced-modules) sorted by volumes and sorted by year/conflicts for your convenience.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Hethwill on October 27, 2021, 06:13:26 AM
If any of you is wondering which scenarios are covered so far (and which might be in the future), I have a list (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2337771/overview-published-and-announced-modules) sorted by volumes and sorted by year/conflicts for your convenience.

That's a great list Jan.
From where did you buy your copies ?! ( if you own any physical )
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 27, 2021, 10:37:42 AM
I really can't make a comparison with C&C for the simple reason that I've never played it. However, these are, for what its worth, some of my thoughts on the H&M system in general.

I only have Volume I, and so only have access to the rules for that, although I have played a number of scenarios from Vol II and III on Vassal with someone who is very knowledgeable about the rules and has all the material published for those and later expansions.

Therefore, I was only aware of any additional rules that applied to those later games as they were conveyed to me by my opponent.. I really am not sure if any /all of these additional rules can be applied retrospectively to the earlier games.

While the base rules are pretty easy to learn, there are a lot of 'optional' and 'recommended' rules that add a significant amount of detail (and thus complexity) to the game.

One one hand, the system is quite clever in that it employs one of three combat tables depending on the size of the battle depicted in the scenario. This obviously enables the system to simulate a lot of scenarios over quite a long historical period when used in conjunction with any relevant special scenario rules provided.

However, in order to do all this, certain sacrifices and abstractions are required. For example, ground scale and unit size are not detailed which does at times make the battles feel a bit generic,. Thus, a unit may represent anything from a few battalions to a few regiments and is just a mass of troops. I'm not inferring that this doesn't work, but to me, it does feel a bit too vague.

Now, I'm no expert on any of the periods covered by the games but have read a few books and played a few games that fit into the time period, so I do have at least an inking of the tactics of those times, and one of the things about the games that had bothered me is 'recommended' rules for formation and facing.

These additional rules obviously add much to the authenticity of the games but a at a cost of slowing things down a little. It also introduces the use of a new chart that influences the combat calculations by making a comparison of the attacking units formation in relation to the defending units formation.
My argument is that where the unit is a large body, as maybe depicted in one of the 'large' battle scenarios, then would all the sub units in that body be in the same formation and with the same facing? For example, some flank battalions (or whatever) may be in a refused flank. This is easy enough to depict with smaller scale games but has to be assumed to be the case where the unit represents a large body of troops.

Anyway, my point is that I do wonder at the validity of the formation and facing rules. I stress that this is just my take on it and I'm quite happy if someone want to try and educate me.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: LetsPlayHistory on October 28, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
From where did you buy your copies ?! ( if you own any physical )

I only have the PnP files from WargameVault so far.
I plan using my 3mm armies for the game, maybe with C&C board or so (the hexes might be a bit too small, though).
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: t341 on November 23, 2021, 03:23:26 PM
 Sean Chick fan,  Have all of his "hold the Line" games and some earlier versions like Clash for a Continent designed  by Matt Burchfield, Grant Wylie, Mike Wylie.  Bought all the original Horse and Musket series and recently purchased all the upgrade materials  and a second copy of the original game to get a second map tile set and  a second upgrade map.  I am playing through all the scenarios from the first box and concurrently the IV edition scenarios.  I have noticed some of the games are historical replays and are certainly lopsided with one side having little or no chance of winning.  It's a great series with optional rules that enhance the game.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on November 23, 2021, 03:32:43 PM
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: besilarius on November 27, 2021, 04:39:37 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qNd_hUqEEl4

An oldie but goodie.
Title: Re: Horse and Musket.
Post by: bob48 on February 18, 2022, 05:42:48 PM
I've just been playing the 'Malplaquet' scenario again - I had forgotten how good it was.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on February 20, 2022, 02:02:24 PM
I've recently found myself drawn back into playing H&M (Vol I), taking the opportunity to visit some of the scenarios that I had previously not bothered much with. I'm using just the basic rules at present in order to get back up to speed with it, and it all flows along very nicely with out much recourse of having to consult the rules.

The system is actually quite clever in the way that it can encompass battles of many sizes using only one map plus the overlays through the use of slightly different CRT's and movement rates, etc. Thus we have 'small, normal and grand' battles. Obviously, we do accept some abstractions here, so don't look for ground scales of detailed unit sizes. We can assume that unit represent bodies of troop that range from a few battalions to a few regiments. In any case, unit size is represented by a morale number rather that a number which represents the number of troops, and this works well within the game context.

The first of the many optional rules are those for formation and facing, and whilst these do add some 'realism' into the game without much additional complexity, they do add a little to playing time.  When combat occurs, we cross reference the stance of the attacking unit with that of the defender to yield a possible DRM.
there isn't a handy PAC to cover this, you must instead glean what you want from the rules, although strangely, there is one with the Vassal mod. I therefore decided a while ago to produce one, which I did, and made it available on the games BBG page, and to prove it, here is the link;

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/191669/formation-modifiers

Now, this got me thinking about how relevant this is given what the unit counters represent. I did consider if that within such an obviously large body of troop, they (the sub-units) would not all be assuming the same frontage or formation. I'm thinking of things such as refused flanks, and reserves in column and so on.

OK, they are after all just optional rules, the whole point being that you use them or not at your discretion, but I thought it would be interesting to see what other players think.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on February 23, 2022, 05:46:43 AM
Well, that went down like a cast-iron Zeppelin.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: mcguire on February 23, 2022, 04:41:49 PM
I haven't played Horse & Musket enough to get good feel for it, but I expect the formation rules are just making the simplistic assumption that everything in the unit is in the same formation, although (given that formations are an optional rule) it could be that it means most of the sub-units are in the given formation. I think (did I mention that I haven't played it enough to decide?) that in the former case, being in the wrong formation or orientation would be catastrophic while in the latter it would only be pretty bad.

I would like to note that Phil Sabin, in his simplified conversion (https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/225055/horse-foot-simplified-rules-system) explicitly got rid of the formations optional rule.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on February 23, 2022, 05:10:06 PM
I have played it quite a bit using the formation & facing rules and I really can't decide if they have a sufficient impact on the battle outcome to justify the extra effort involved.

My feeling really is that its not relevant for such large scale battles, and where the size of the body of  troops is pretty vague, but there again, this may just be me making excuses for being lazy.

I have in the past played a number of Vassal games with Doug, and he, as developer and scenario designer for some of the game modules, will only play with just about all of the optional rules plugged in.

This is why I was hoping for a bit more feedback on the subject, but I am grateful for your thoughts on the subject.  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: mcguire on February 24, 2022, 02:52:36 PM
You don't need excuses for being lazy. Lazy is a virtue unto itself.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on February 24, 2022, 03:16:59 PM
^ I suspected it was thus, but its nice to have it confirmed :-)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on March 04, 2022, 04:47:55 PM
For those interested; the new edition, well, September 2021 anyway, of the core rule book is available to download on BGG.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/145951/horse-musket-rulebook

Its much clearer and well worth getting if you play the game.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on March 31, 2022, 08:58:42 AM
Just arrived. I place the blame squarely on Bob.

(https://www.aarcentral.com/pics3/5200.jpg)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on March 31, 2022, 09:32:05 AM
Wonderful - brimming with gaming goodness :-)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 07:03:06 AM
I just noticed that the Vassal mod for the 'Fleurus' scenario is missing some terrain items - there are only 2 hills shown instead of 5. I have no idea how to edit a Vassal map.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on April 08, 2022, 07:36:20 AM
Are the hills in the physical game tiles that are added as needed? If so then the module creator should have made them that way as well.
If so you should be able to find them as markers or pieces in the module’s menus and just place them onto the map like units.

If not, let me know and I can take a look at it for you.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 07:51:11 AM
Vance, they are in scenario book, but missing from the Vassal map. I have tried to find out how to edit the map, but can't see how it opens despite having looked at some tutorials.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on April 08, 2022, 07:53:33 AM
Send me the name of the module and a pic of the correct map and I’ll see what I can do.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 07:59:01 AM
OK, thanks.

Its the 'Fleurus' Scenario (obviously from Vol I - 'Dawn of an Era') and the hills are missing from the following hex numbers.

H3, F6, H6
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on April 08, 2022, 10:00:22 AM
I just loaded up ver. 1.3 of the module.

If you click the Counters menu, then select the Terrain tab you will see hills. (see attached pic below)

You can drag these to any hex on the map. Because they are terrain they will not be picked up by a normal left click when on the map. You will need to hold down the Shift key and left click the hill to select it.

Hope that helps.

Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 10:11:27 AM
OK, did that, so thanks, Vance. Is there any way I can edit the module to make the change permanent, or is that something that only the mod creator can do?

Obviously, I could add the terrain and then save the game itself, I guess.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on April 08, 2022, 10:14:39 AM
You would have to go in and make the change to the setup for that scenario. I've not done setups but let me poke around and see what I can do.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:20 AM
You're a star!

Gives you something constructive to do now that yer retired, eh.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on April 08, 2022, 10:46:58 AM
Email coming. New mod. Email should have Google drive link.

The attached pic is from the VASSAL manual on pre-defined setups. Pretty simple actually, once you find it in the manual  :nerd:.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Doctor Quest on April 08, 2022, 10:54:25 AM
Pretty simple actually, once you find it in the manual

The story of my life, right there.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 10:57:20 AM
Vance is THE Vassal guru :-))

Working now - thanks Vance  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on April 08, 2022, 12:51:20 PM
Vance is THE Vassal guru :-))

Working now - thanks Vance  :bigthumb:

I'm just a hack compared to some out there.
Glad it works for you.
 :)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on April 08, 2022, 01:31:26 PM
You're too modest by far.  ;)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 23, 2022, 06:19:07 AM
Still awaiting news for the release of Vol V which will cover the period post AWI (so basically, Napoleonic).

For those of you who play the series, and are not aware, then you can download the revised (as of September 2021) rulebook.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/145951/horse-musket-rulebook
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 27, 2022, 08:55:17 AM
Still awaiting news for the release of Vol V which will cover the period post AWI (so basically, Napoleonic).

WAIT NO LONGER!

https://hollandspiele.com/products/horse-musket-v-age-of-napoleon
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2022, 09:21:19 AM
There we are then. No doubt we can expect another 'annual' with a lot more scenarios.

Hollandspiele sell it for $50 whereas the selling price at SCG (the exclusive outlet in the UK) is £70.00 before postage cost ($75) which means that its not something I will buy.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on September 27, 2022, 10:27:13 AM
You just cost me $50!
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2022, 12:03:18 PM
Excluding postage.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of the period, so I doubt I would have brought it anyway. :-)
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 27, 2022, 01:23:30 PM
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of the period, so I doubt I would have brought it anyway. :-)

You mentioned above that you'd played most of V1 and some of V2 & 3 online w/ some other folks.

What was it about those that grabbed your attention that this one doesn't?  Short Corsican Burnout Syndrome™?
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2022, 01:44:27 PM
Although I have read about / played Napoleon period, it just does not interest me as much as the periods covered by Vol I, II and III. I would also get Vol IV if I could since again, the period it covers, AWI, is of some interest, although not a period that I have much studied, but I would very much like to get Horse and matchlock since the ECW and TYW are of great interest to me..

The other point is that I'm not convinced at how well the H&M system will handle the Napoleonic period.

The reason I say that is that the system is very clever at being able to cover a lot of historical ground by the use of three different battle CRT's. However, in order to achieve this, you have to accept some abstractions in terms of unit size, ground and time scale, and I think that these aspects assume a greater importance in this later conflict.

I also have to admit that, as much as I like the system, I do find the art style to be pretty bland and boring and could have been presented in a much more interesting way. As ever, I stress that this is just my personal opinion and others may not agree.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on September 27, 2022, 07:49:53 PM
I'm in agreement with you, Bob, on the artwork being a bit subpar. As far as handling the Napoleonic period, if Command & Colors can do it, so can Horse and Musket!  :peace:
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 28, 2022, 06:00:05 AM
I've not ever played any C&C games as I will admit to not liking block games one little bit.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: besilarius on September 29, 2022, 02:54:43 PM
Just out of curiousity, because I don't have any gamers that play this, how well do you feel the system handles the age of Marlborough?
The reason I ask, is the difference between the French and English horse.  The French had a more rough and tumble system.  Think it was Marshal Boufflers who said each trooper of the Madison EU Roi should take out three enemy troopets.
One by shooting his pistol, a second by throwing his empty pistol at an enemy troopet, and a third by drawing his sabre.  Basically a big rugby scrum.
Whereas Marlborough forbade his troopers to use their pistols in attack.  The fast trot and ordered, disciplined ranks.

Most game systems I've looked at, seem to make no differentiation between the national cavalries.
Also, how the harsher discipline did allow units to fall back behind the second line and reform.  I have read that at Ramilles, one of the Dutch cavalry attacked, fell back to reform, and attacked again four times.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on September 29, 2022, 03:13:10 PM
Its actually quite simple how this is done, but by the same token, quite effective given the overall simplicity of the system. In fact, the interaction between the different types of 'horseman' is maybe the most (relatively) complex part of they system.

There are three 'flavours'; Cavalry (heavy stuff such as Cuirassiers) Hussars and Dragoons and each have specific abilities. In terms of national differences, this is handled in a scenario's special rules whereby a nations cavalry may be classed a 'inferior' or 'superior' or even 'superior charging' and this in turn effects how many combat dice and/or DRM's a unit will get. It all actually works quite well and does give some satisfying results.

As I noted above, you can actually download the latest version of the rules and judge for yourself.

I gather that the rules work quite well with mini's if that be your preference.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 05, 2022, 06:18:58 AM
One of the other unfortunate aspects of the system is the difficulty, when playing or trying to do an AAR, of getting a decent narrative going. This I attribute to the generic and anonymous nature of the units and the map whereby you cannot refer to the action of a named unit or a specific named geographical location, although some leaders are represented by a named counter. I've even, after comparing actual battlefield maps with those of the map set-ups for the appropriate scenario, began to actually question the accuracy of some of the maps, even allowing the limited number of terrain types available.

As I have said before, these, together with the rather dull artwork do tend to detract from the game, despite the fact that it is undoubtedly a good system with a huge scope. We just have to accept the trade-off, and whatever, I continually get drawn back into playing it.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 10, 2022, 07:56:57 AM
Since I'm reading Dennis Showalter's book about Frederick II and Prussia, and having just reach the point where the battle of Mollwitz is about to take place, I thought it would be interesting to see how this looks in H&M. I'm using the Vassal mod here since I don't actually have H&M Vol II.

The book tells us that the Prussian deployment was as follows: 36 squadrons on the left, although it does not define if they are hussars or dragoons.
A further 35 squadrons on the right, but again, no details as to the composition of this force.

In the centre was 23 battalions of infantry in the front line with a further 12 battalions in the second line.

The game has one unit of Hussars and one unit of Dragoons deployed on the left and just one unit of cavalry on the right.
The front rank consists of two units of Elite Line and 2 units of Line, with a further two Line units in the second line.

My aim was to try and see how the scenario designers translate historical forces into those depicted in the game. Given the generic unit size, this is not all that clear, to me at least.

Just crunching some figures, then each of the horse units would be an average of 24 squadrons, although this does not equate well with the actual number of squadrons that we are told were present. Again, I have no detail of the actual number of horses that constituted a squadron, or a breakdown of the the number of men there was in each arm. We are told that the total Prussian force was around 21,600 men.

Using the same principle, then each of the infantry units represent approximately 6 battalions. From what I can find out, the 'normal' organisation at that period was that a brigade consisted of 2 regiments each of 2 battalions, and therefore that would indicate that each infantry unit in the scenario is equal to 3 brigades.

Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 10, 2022, 09:03:12 AM
An interesting experiment. I've always thought that games like this (H&M, C&C, HtL) are 'zoomed out' a bit too far for their scenarios. They do a good job of providing the feel/atmosphere of the battle but not so much the detail and strategy really involved.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 10, 2022, 09:12:14 AM
I wonder if the scaling isn't "elastic" in that those representative units might be 6 battalions in this scenario, but 9 battalions in another one.  But so long as everyone in the same scenario has the the same scaling, the play balance still works out.

I'm just spitballing here, though.  I don't know if that's actually how they are balanced.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 10, 2022, 09:26:44 AM
Oh, no question of that. Its really the basis of how the system works, allowing flexible unit size to accommodate disparate battle size. Bear in mind that a scenario may be one of three different sizes, and you then use the appropriate CRT. (small, normal or large).

I suspect that the designer will be using some sort of algorithm that turns raw data, in terms of known historical army size, and translates that into appropriate units for a given scenario.

Maybe with the aid of a bit of tinkering and perhaps in some cases, educated guess-work  ;D
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on October 10, 2022, 09:49:57 AM
Along with that will be "balancing" the scenario in terms of number of unit counters that make the scenario interesting and fun to play.
 
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 10, 2022, 09:56:04 AM
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: Barthheart on October 10, 2022, 10:00:53 AM
The one game of H&M I played with Doug seemed to go well. We played the simple rules, but it still managed to feel like the period and units. Was even able to use rudimentary combined arms, with cannons firing to soften up units then infantry to beat them up then cavalry to run them down.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on October 10, 2022, 10:06:43 AM
Oh yes, its fun to play as long as you accept the abstractions required by the system, and does capture the feel of the periods it depicts. I did play a few games on Vassal with Doug and we always felt that the outcome of the games didn't produce any real ahistorical results.
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bbmike on October 10, 2022, 10:33:00 AM
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 21, 2022, 10:09:22 AM
https://www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/reviews/unbox/unbox-hmv/
Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bayonetbrant on November 16, 2023, 03:09:27 PM
#UnboxingDay ~ Horse & Musket VI: Sunset of an Era from Hollandspiele

Title: Re: FOCUS ON..........Horse and Musket (H&M)
Post by: bob48 on November 16, 2023, 04:10:57 PM
Very interesting, but, I have to say, that I personally think that its pushing the system into periods that are really not suitable for it. However, I'll be interested to hear what Mike thinks once he's had chance to play it a bit more and maybe prove me wrong :-)