Armchair Dragoons Forums
Wargaming => Age of Gunpowder => Topic started by: bob48 on May 12, 2020, 03:06:58 PM
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Just ordered this today :-)
https://www.worthingtonpublishing.com/collection/antietam-1862
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I've had that in the cart soooo many times! :bigthumb:
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I finally managed to pick it up from Hexasim in France who just got stock in today- non of the UK stores have it yet.
There is a Vassal mod for it Mike :-)
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That map looks pretty old school
:bigthumb:
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Yep, it is pretty old school, but its a nice brigade level game of a battle that I have always found interesting. Nice components, easy to learn and play, and ideal for solo, plus it can play through fairly quickly.
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Bawb, this is pretty unlikely, but if the opportunity ever came up, Antietam battlefield is a very nice day.
It's well maintained, well marked, and surprisingly small.
It can easily be walked, or biked.
This makes it quite clear how poor McClellan was in the presence of the enemy.
A gamer once noted how different second Manassas and Antietam would have been if the union commanders had been swapped.
Pope's combativeness would have worked at Antietam, while Mac's cauton was suited to Second Manassas.
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:bigthumb:
If only ;)
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I'm embarrassed to say I live about 80 miles from Antietam and have never been. :-[
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SHOCK HORROR!
Did you buy the game yet? ;D
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I'm about 75 miles away from the battlefield and have been there several times. I'm tempted to buy the game and play it a few times, and then return to the battlefield to see if playing the game gives me a new perspective.
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SHOCK HORROR!
Did you buy the game yet? ;D
>:D
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I'm about 75 miles away from the battlefield and have been there several times. I'm tempted to buy the game and play it a few times, and then return to the battlefield to see if playing the game gives me a new perspective.
That sounds like a great idea :bigthumb:
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After I retire (two more years!) I'm hoping to visit some of the closer battlefields.
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After I retire (two more years!) I'm hoping to visit some of the closer battlefields.
I have 35.5 months until retirement myself. I calculated that I have about 600 working days.
If they open up Virginia soon, my wife and might take a day trip south to visit Chancellorsville, Wilderness, and Spotsylvania Courthouse. We did all three in one day a couple of years ago, so this time we might do two out of three.
Manassas is closest to me, but I've only been there once or twice. I've been to Gettysburg probably 8 times, Antietam probably 4 times.
I bought a game for the battle Kernstown last year and also want to play that. I haven't been there in 10 years, but after playing the game it would be good to get back out there.
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If I were ever able to do so, I would have loved to follow Jackson's route around the Shenandoah Valley..
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My brother and I visited Antietam years back and had a great time. I was struck by my VERY layman's eye view that Lee choose poor ground to fight on. His right flank was out of sight and the ground to the north was easily passable to flank him from there and cut him off from the Potomac. The battle field only made sense to me if the North came right at him from Antietam Creek. I came away thinking Lee just wanted a fight and didn't really put much thinking where he wanted to fight it. Pulling back behind the Potomac would've made a lot more sense to me. But, hey... I'm no Lee.
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But Lee knew Little Mac.............
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SSI had a good computer game on Antietam. And SPI had a large boardgame.
They both showed what a gambler Lee was.
And how inept Mac was. Almost any other commander, even Don Carlis Buell, should have won there.
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I had the SPI game. In fact, I had all the games that were in the original GBACW series.
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In regards to visiting the ACW battlefields. John Keegan had a book, Battlefields of North America (?)
He tramped through many and gave good description s. His account of the Seven Days Battles was surprising. All the sites we're so close to each other and had very little in the way of markers. Virtually untouched, at that time. By now they're probably all paved over.
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That sounds interesting. I'll check it out on amazon.
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I'm embarrassed to say I live about 80 miles from Antietam and have never been. :-[
Once you start going to them, you're going to be shocked at how close together the Eastern battlefields are. The ACW in the east did not cover a huge amount of territory. There's a reason they fought more than once at Manassas. Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville and Antietam are a comfortable drive from each other.
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In regards to visiting the ACW battlefields. John Keegan had a book, Battlefields of North America (?)
He tramped through many and gave good description s. His account of the Seven Days Battles was surprising. All the sites we're so close to each other and had very little in the way of markers. Virtually untouched, at that time. By now they're probably all paved over.
Is this the one?
https://www.amazon.com/Fields-Battle-Wars-North-America/dp/067942413X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
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I'm embarrassed to say I live about 80 miles from Antietam and have never been. :-[
Once you start going to them, you're going to be shocked at how close together the Eastern battlefields are. The ACW in the east did not cover a huge amount of territory. There's a reason they fought more than once at Manassas. Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville and Antietam are a comfortable drive from each other.
That'll be nice, less travel for me. :bigthumb:
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Yes, Stagger. Not one of Keegan's very best, but still really good.
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Yeah you can drive the Shenandoah Valley at a leisurely pace and almost see an ACW battlefield every hour the whole way. Beautiful country too.
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:sigh:
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Arrrgh, now I want another game, I'll probably never play!!! :waah:
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You will play it - I'll harass you until you do. ;D
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My copy arrived today. The components are top-notch. I'm impressed enough to consider buying their 'Shiloh' games as well.
Why they are upside down, I have not a clue - however, click on the image and all will be revealed.
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I've watched a few of those; they really are very good. :bigthumb:
...brought the game yet, Mike? :whistle:
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Ha! No, not yet. What I really need to do is finish The Scheldt Campaign in TTS so you can teach me how to play it. :nerd:
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Excellent - let me know when you're ready. Its a really nice little game :bigthumb:
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I've now had chance to sit down and play 'Antiatem', albeit so far, just Scenario One - The Morning Attack, in which Hooker's I Corps and Mansfield's XII Corps are thrown against the confederate line.
But first, a little information on the game would be in order;
Its a brigade level game, with each strength point being approximately 100 men or a section of 2 guns. Army, Corps and Division commanders are included and they provide a command radius and also a DRM when stacked with a unit that is required to make a moral check.
The ground scale is 250 yards per hex, and each turn represents a hour.
Its a very straight forwards game system, and easy to learn. As with most games, I had a couple of rules questions but I found the answer to most of these on the games BGG page, where the games designer is very active.
A second game in the series, 'Shiloh' is also available and it would seem that more games are planned, with the next instalment being 4 battles from the Yorktown Peninsular.
I'm very happy with the way the games flows and the way the combat system works, and it seems to recreate the ebb and flow of the battle very well indeed.
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Just reading through this, I observe:
1. Retirement is not close so y'all can bite me.
2. I loved Antietam as a battlefield. Not as much as a Napoleonic one, of course, but...
3. Had I known y'all wanted to ACW so much, I'd have set up Antietam for "Altar of Freedom" sooner. Voxel Blue Bellies FTW!
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I have always found Antiatem to be one of the most interesting battles of the ACW - it, together with South Mountain, has such a big 'what if' factor.
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I'm in if Bob's in. 8)
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Absolutely!
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One question about Antietam, what did Fitzjohn Porter think of his corps' daylong teseve?
He was loyal to Mac and V Corps' had been involved in heavy fighting, at Second Manassas, it was rolled over by Longstreet.
Still, he was a fighter and I cannot stop wondering how he took being sidelined.
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Porter was soon restored to command of the corps by McClellan and led it through the Maryland Campaign, where the corps served in a reserve position during the Battle of Antietam. He is said to have told McClellan, "Remember, General, I command the last reserve of the last Army of the Republic." McClellan took his implied advice and failed to commit his reserves into a battle that might have been won if he had used his forces aggressively.
On November 25, 1862, Porter was arrested and court-martialed for his actions at Second Bull Run. By this time, McClellan had been relieved by President Abraham Lincoln and could not provide political cover for his protégé. Porter's association with the disgraced McClellan and his open criticism of Pope were significant reasons for his conviction at court-martial. Porter was found guilty on January 10, 1863, of disobedience and misconduct, and he was dismissed from the Army on January 21, 1863.
That was taken from his Wikipedia page.
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Pope. I think someone described him as not knowing his headquarters from his hindquarters. ;D
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From Honest Abe himself, whose sense of humor is never adequately appreciated:
“The trouble with Pope is that he’s got his headquarters where his hindquarters ought to be.”
After receiving a dispatch from Gen. John Pope addressed from “headquarters in the saddle.”
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That, no doubt, would have been during the Valley Campaign?
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There was a comment by Pope in the History of the Civil War, sometime in the 1880s, I think.
Every surviving general was asked for commentary on their battles.
Even that much later, Pope seemed to feel it was not possible for Longstreet to have been on his flank.
It was really a shame that Thomas died when he did. His comments on Buell, Rosecrans, Stones River, and Chickamauga could have been fascinating.
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Much of this stuff was published in the 4 volumes of 'Battles & Leaders' which is an excellent set of books.
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A bit more info for y'all on this game;
There are three scenario's and one campaign game, details of which are as follows.
1) The Morning Attack.
This throws Hookers I corps and Mansfield's XII corps against the confederate line. and is 6 turns long.
2) Bloody lane.
A small scenario that pits two divisions of Sumner's II corps against DH Hills division defending the sunken road and is 3 turns long. A good learning scenario.
3) Burnside Bridge.
IX corps battle to cross the river and opposed by, mainly, DR Jones division of Longstreet's corps. Scenario is 8 turns long.
The full battle starts at 0600 and ends 1900 - 14 turns!
The mounted map is very clear and well produced, and the 3/4" counters are colourful and easy to handle, especially since, other than markers and leaders, there is no stacking in the game.
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I told my wife to buy herself something for Mother's Day, since I couldn't go out to the stores. Now if she would just do the same! ::)
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I have the Shiloh game on order as well :-)
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And......Shiloh arrived today :-)
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That was fast. :bigthumb:
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Yes it was. Bear in mind I brought it, and Antiatem from Hexasim in France, since non of the UK stores have them. I only ordered it last Wednesday, and it arrived today despite the fact that yesterday was a bank holiday. They really do seem to be on the ball, not only do they have good stocks of games, they also obviously publish a fine range of quality games themselves.
I am most impressed.
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I jumped on the Antietam 1862 (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/264669/antietam-1862) bandwagon.
I refuse to think I need help. :nope:
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Its a very nice game :-)
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:bigthumb:
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...and so is Shiloh......
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...and so is Shiloh......
Nope
Not today anyway :D
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..but, they are from the same series! How can you have one without the other..................
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Because Miniatures Market didn't have it?
I watched Marco's review video and was immediately smitten by the large hexes and counters.
Large hexes do it for me. :dreamer:
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Aye, big hexes and 3/4" counters - plus very nice mounted maps. I hope they do more games using this system.
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Because Miniatures Market didn't have it?
I watched Marco's review video and was immediately smitten by the large hexes and counters.
Large hexes do it for me. :dreamer:
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;D
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haha!
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:bigthumb: :bigthumb: :bigthumb:
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Monty Python has an answer for just about everything ;D
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Just arrived, pretty stoked. Gotta wait for the workday to end before I can unbox though. :waah:
(https://i.imgur.com/nc1NpOl.jpg)
The fortuitous pause with the movie Up The Creek was not planned; I paused it there to see what came to the door.
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Demo copies? (http://www.aarcentral.com/emoti/HideEyes.gif)
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No, bought 'em with some birthday cash. :rockon:
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:bigthumb:
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That ought to keep you out of trouble. For a little while. :bigthumb:
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Ha! Not much chance of that :2funny:
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Nope...lol.
Right now I'm trying to get through the Star Trek Frontiers manual, which truly sucks. It's not hard to fathom, it's just a lot of tiny print in three columns across 30-odd pages. :(
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Just arrived, pretty stoked. Gotta wait for the workday to end before I can unbox though. :waah:
(https://i.imgur.com/nc1NpOl.jpg)
The fortuitous pause with the movie Up The Creek was not planned; I paused it there to see what came to the door.
That is proper superb that the pause happened as you got those games. Nice one. Like the look of Antietam
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Got Antietam to the table late last night for a brief intro to the system. Screwed up the flow of the game (interestingly, there's no summary of the sequence of play on the back of the rules nor on the player aid sheets) but I'll get the hang of it. It's pretty simple. I find I still need a magnifying glass to read the hex numbers on the board for set-up, though.
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B_C, make sure you get the v1.2 rules which have a couple of significant changes and clarifications. There are also one or two set-up errors so its worth checking the BGG page.
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B_C, make sure you get the v1.2 rules which have a couple of significant changes and clarifications. There are also one or two set-up errors so its worth checking the BGG page.
:bigthumb:
I saw that on BGG, thanks though. I need to print it out.
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I've got the full campaign set up and ready to go.
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Beware the cat!
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Beware the cat!
I've a solution to that problem in an upcoming video. No cats were harmed in production. :bigthumb:
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Beware the cat!
She doesn't appear to be an ACW fan.
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What's so special about the battle at Antietam? There were loads of battles in the Civil War.
Why is this one so special to you (by you I mean anyone who knows and "likes" (for want of a better word) this specific battle)
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In some ways, it was a turning point. Since it could be viewed as a Union Victory (or at least, not a defeat) something which the Union had not been able to achieve up to that point. This allowed Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, which he had been holding on to awaiting such a positive moment to arrive.
This effectively stopped other countries, mainly England and France, from recognising the Confederacy, something which was a real possibility, since they could not be seen to supporting a country who still had slavery. Remember that by this time, both England and France had outlawed slavery.
Its a bit more complex than that, but that is the gist of it.
Furthermore, the battle itself, in conjunction with South Mountain, is very interesting. McClellan missed a chance to decisively destroy Lee's army, even though he had captured a copy of Lee's full battle plan. A significant portion of his army was never committed to battle even though it was 'on the field'.
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Not to take us down a rabid rabbit hole, but there was a wargamer, George Vrooman, who was an Episcopal monk with an interest in wargaming. (You meet the strangest people at gaming conventions.)
He was interested in the generals of the seventeen the and eighteenth centuries, a favorite was Turrene.
What intrigued him was how few decisive battles there were. This was to him, because of the generals training and personality.
He thought McClellan was doomed to mediocrity because of being a manager of a railroad and jumping up too fast to control an army too big. (Peter Principle).
This was typical of many generals of the earlier time, who were royal favorite and over trusted.
But as a religious, he also felt God didn't let him win decisively. If he had, then Mac would have surely become president in time. Since he was ambivalent on slavery, that would not work within God's plan.
I hate mixing theology with wargaming. How many sixes can fit on the head of a pin?
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In some ways, it was a turning point. Since it could be viewed as a Union Victory (or at least, not a defeat) something which the Union had not been able to achieve up to that point. This allowed Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, which he had been holding on to awaiting such a positive moment to arrive.
This effectively stopped other countries, mainly England and France, from recognising the Confederacy, something which was a real possibility, since they could not be seen to supporting a country who still had slavery. Remember that by this time, both England and France had outlawed slavery.
Its a bit more complex than that, but that is the gist of it.
Furthermore, the battle itself, in conjunction the South Mountain, is very interesting. McClellan missed a chance to decisively destroy Lee's army, even though he had captured a copy of Lee's full battle plan. A significant portion of his army was never committed to battle even though it was 'on the field'.
Cheers :bigthumb:
I have actually watched Civil War by Ken Burns - but I don't retain a whole lot nowadays. I do remember this now you mention it - particularly that McClellan left a chunk of his forces out of the battle
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What's so special about the battle at Antietam? There were loads of battles in the Civil War.
Why is this one so special to you (by you I mean anyone who knows and "likes" (for want of a better word) this specific battle)
It is generally regarded as the single bloodiest day in American military history.
It was also the first time the south had a serious presence north of the Potomac River. Lee had momentum, and this was a serious threat to DC and to the north.
And as Bob pointed out, victory (or at least not a defeat) enabled Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation.
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Yeah, was going to say the casualty count for one day was somewhere near 23,000. About 3500 of them were killed.
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I always wondered why a great general like Lee decided to stand with his back to the Potomac River. After visiting the battlefield, I'm still not sure why he did that. I think Lee was thinking after he beat the Yankees, he would drive on north into Pennsylvania and therefore needed a bridgehead across the Potomac. But I still think the ground at Antietam wasn't that good for the South, his southern flank was out of sight of his center and the ground to the north was easily flanked by the North. Plus he was heavily outnumbered. If Lee had been cut-off above the Potomac, it would've been a disaster for him ultimately I think. I believe Lee should've stood south of the river and dared Little Mac to come across. But if I had been in command, the South probably would have lost at Fort Sumter. :notme: Either way, it's a great battlefield to visit. Really pretty country.
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I suspect that its because Lee knew McClellan and counted on him being over cautious.
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I agree and he probably over estimated Longstreet and Jackson's abilities. I don't think either one was keen on the idea of fighting there.