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Author Topic: Ships!  (Read 374148 times)

mirth

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Reply #345 on: February 15, 2019, 12:09:20 PM

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bbmike

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Reply #346 on: February 15, 2019, 01:01:49 PM
Isn't that where those idiotic scavengers are?  :(

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Staggerwing

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Reply #347 on: February 15, 2019, 06:15:54 PM
I think those asshats are operating mostly in the East Indies and South China Sea areas.

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Sir Slash

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Reply #348 on: February 15, 2019, 11:13:14 PM
Too bad. The sharks in Ironbottom Sound gotta eat too.

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bayonetbrant

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Reply #349 on: February 19, 2019, 11:26:11 AM
this dude makes some really good points about the Navy failing to adequately articulate their needs & vision to the shipbuilding world

https://blog.usni.org/posts/2019/02/04/ill-have-a-ship-killer-no-cream-no-sugar

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trailrunner

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Reply #350 on: February 19, 2019, 03:32:58 PM
this dude makes some really good points about the Navy failing to adequately articulate their needs & vision to the shipbuilding world

https://blog.usni.org/posts/2019/02/04/ill-have-a-ship-killer-no-cream-no-sugar


I've worked on every program mentioned in the article.  A couple of my thoughts:

- DDG 1000 was a product of the 90s.  The Clinton administration was pushing high-tech weapons, and the Navy watched what the Air Force was doing with the F-22 and what the Army was doing with FCS, and needed to stay relevant, so they came up with the Zumwalt.  Ships are not the same as aircraft (in many ways), and FCS wound up dying, but now we're stuck with three DDG 1000 class ships that were way too ambitious and now have ill-defined missions.  I doubt if one will ever become operational.  In the meantime, we are pouring a lot of money into them.  Nobody has the courage to stick a fork in the program and cut our losses.

- LCS is another disaster.  Our running joke is that LCS stands for "little crappy ship."  This was the Navy's attempt at cost savings (ahem) with a modular mission package.  The jury is still out on that, but they haven't sorted out the problems with the sea frames themselves (which should be easy).  And buying two different hulls is a textbook example of how not to do acquisition.

- The article mentioned NSM.  I'm very familiar with that program.  It is being rushed into deployment very, very fast.  By the time FFG(X) is operational (earliest would be 10 years from now), I doubt that NSM will be the choice for this ship.  But the bigger picture is that the Navy doesn't have a good long-range strategy for their attack weapons.  There are several interim stop-gap solutions, such as LRASM, Maritime Strike Tomahawk, and NSM, but I haven't seen much thought beyond those.  Land attack is part of this also.

- I'm also very familiar with FFG(X).  I will give the Navy credit for this program.  From my view, they are going back to basics, or at least are being more realistic.  They are having an open competition with five candidates, and from what I've seen, they've learned their lessons from LCS.  At this point, they are not trying to be too ambitious, but mission creep is perhaps the biggest enemy of DoD acquisition programs, and we'll see where we're at a decade from now.

- I am less familiar with the amphibs, but the article doesn't say anything substantial.  I will say that you shouldn't believe anything in the HII figure.


As a personal update: I've spent the last couple of years in acquisition of major Navy systems, but in a couple of weeks I'm moving to a new position in Army S&T.  I worked in an Army lab before my current position, so I'm looking forward to getting back to the engineering side of things, and I think I will be working on some interesting things.  And I didn't plan my career this way, but by working on Navy programs, I've now worked on just about every area in DoD except cyber.  (You would think that with this experience, I'd be better at wargames, but that knowledge doesn't seem to have transferred.)  With my new job, I'll also be moving from the Pentagon to Crystal City, which will put me in the middle of Amazon's HQ2.  I'm not sure if that will be good or bad.


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mirth

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Reply #351 on: February 19, 2019, 03:36:02 PM
Great insights. Thanks Trailrunner.

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bayonetbrant

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Reply #352 on: February 19, 2019, 03:38:43 PM
What do you think of the author's assertions that the Navy does a crappy job of explaining what they want to the market that's trying to respond the Navy's (stated) goals / desires?

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trailrunner

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Reply #353 on: February 19, 2019, 06:13:03 PM
What do you think of the author's assertions that the Navy does a crappy job of explaining what they want to the market that's trying to respond the Navy's (stated) goals / desires?

I sort of agree with him that the Navy lacks a solid operational concept, but that is true of all services because nobody knows what war we are going to fight next.  In most cases, the service decides what kind of ship or plane or tank they want, then conjure up a corresponding operational concept to fit that.  Is the Navy worse than the other services?  Maybe, maybe not.  For the last 28 years, the Navy has been watching the Army and Air Force have most of the action, and the Navy surface warfare has been a little lost. With the recent realignment towards our near-peers and the happenings in the South China Sea, the Navy has a better focus on where they are needed, but we still don't know what a battle could look like -- will it be quickly decided by subs?  Aircraft?  Surface-to-surface missiles?  I have no idea.  I don't think the Navy (or anyone) does either, but what I was trying to say was that the issues with DDG 1000 and LCS were more of a result of trying new things in the 90s than a lack of an operational concept.  Ships (like other military systems) take a long, long time, so now we're sort of stuck with decisions we made back then.  Although the author didn't state it this way, I think the Navy should develop a roadmap for strike weapons (not just surface warfare), which will affect development of both the weapons themselves, and to some degree the ships.  Hand-in-hand with this would be an operational concept, so I'm sort of in alignment with the author.  For amphibs -- yeah, the operational concept is vague: can any of us really conceive of an amphibious assault in the next decade, or what it would look like?  I was also trying to say that FFG(X) seems to be getting back to basics, and the Navy has clarity with what they want, except for that roadmap for their strike weapons which the ship will eventually deploy.

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mirth

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Reply #354 on: February 21, 2019, 01:31:09 PM
Quote
USS Enterprise (CV-6) landing aircraft while supporting the Gilberts Operation, 22 November 1943



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mirth

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Reply #355 on: February 21, 2019, 01:44:57 PM
Quote
French submarine Perle (S606)



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mirth

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Reply #356 on: February 21, 2019, 01:47:19 PM
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Hood aerial view of the ship's starboard midships area, off Honolulu, on 12 June 1924. Note rangefinders atop the conning tower and foremast top; with a partially disassembled air craft platform atop B turret; and boats stowed amidships.



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mirth

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Reply #357 on: February 21, 2019, 06:48:36 PM

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Sir Slash

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Reply #358 on: February 21, 2019, 10:57:17 PM
Well done Admiral John.  :applause:

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mirth

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Reply #359 on: February 25, 2019, 11:25:53 AM

Being able to Google shit better than your clients is a legit career skill.