Armchair Dragoons Forums
Wargaming => Pre-Gunpowder => Topic started by: bayonetbrant on September 18, 2018, 01:10:59 PM
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with only some contemporaneous accounts to work with, how 'realistic' were the depictions of classical warfare that had 'champions' of each army facing off to actually decide a battle, like Hector & Achilles (yeah, I know they didn't actually decide the battle with that one)?
And if those sorts of mano-a-mano combats were the norm, why not build the macro-level/operational-level games around just maneuvering the heroes into place for the battle?
In other words, is Yaquinto's Mythology actually closer to an accurate depiction of classical combat than Hoplite?
And if not, then what to make of the contemporaneous accounts of champions dueling it out for their generals?
Thoughts?
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Actually, you could say that Hector being killed by Achillies did decide the battle, as, according to the Homeric version, Priam threw open the gates to Illium and surrendered the city, thus ending the siege.
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Actually, you could say that Hector being killed by Achillies did decide the battle, as, according to the Homeric version, Priam threw open the gates to Illium and surrendered the city, thus ending the siege.
well, there was a horse involved, wasn't there?
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Not in the Homeric version, no.
The 'horse' appears in the 'Aeneid' by Virgil, which historians regard as a 'rip-off' of the Iliad. Its generally accepted that Troy did exist, but there is no evidence of a horse at all.
Also, given that the siege lasted 9 years, and the area for miles around had been stripped of resources, it seems a little odd that they can suddenly produce enough timber to build a giant horse in a very short time and from 'scratch'.
I think I'll stick the Homer's version!
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well, there was a horse involved, wasn't there?
neigh
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Not in the Homeric version, no.
The 'horse' appears in the 'Aeneid' by Virgil, which historians regard as a 'rip-off' of the Iliad. Its generally accepted that Troy did exist, but there is no evidence of a horse at all.
Also, given that the siege lasted 9 years, and the area for miles around had been stripped of resources, it seems a little odd that they can suddenly produce enough timber to build a giant horse in a very short time and from 'scratch'.
I think I'll stick the Homer's version!
I like the Brad Pitt version :buck2:
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I like the Brad Pitt version :buck2:
Interestingly, so does Eric Cline, the guy who wrote 1177BC: The Year that Civilization Collapsed. He actually thought it was pretty good, and he's one of the foremost scholars on the Late Bronze Age around today.
Here's the start of a great series of lectures he does on the Trojan War:
In answer to the original question, the single combat thing was more an artifact of the Bronze Age than of Classical Greece. I doubt you can find many, or even any Classical Greek accounts of champions or leaders dueling like that. The combats depicted in the Iliad and the battles depicted in Hoplite are at least 500 years and a Dark Age apart. Hector wasn't a historian, he was a poet who wrote down an oral tradition 500 years old. Assuming there even was a single "Homer."
Anabasis isn't full of that kind of fighting. It reads much more like an account of an early modern campaign. You don't find that in Thucydides. In fact, you don't find it in any of the first-hand accounts we have of the Battle of Kadesh, which took place within about a century of when the Trojan War happened (assuming it happened at all). Instead you have well ordered and mutually supporting formations of chariot cavalry fighting a recognizable meeting engagement.
Were there ritualistic fights between champions in Bronze Age tribal cultures? Yep, I'm sure there were. The pre-Classical Greeks may have even engaged in some of that during any conflicts they had with the inhabitants of the coast of Asia Minor. None of that really existed by the time of Classical Greece though, when hoplites were trained to fight in close order and constituted the world's first heavy infantry force.
The actual Late Bronze Age is a pretty fascinating period, by the way. Much more interesting than the myths handed down over centuries that have ended up as popular entertainment. 1177 BC is well worth the read.
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If you're interested i getting your head around how armies were organized and fought in Classical times, a good place to start are these four books by Stephen English:
https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-English/e/B0034P37DK/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_5?qid=1537320369&sr=8-5
If you're really, really, really interested, read The Tactics of Aelian:
https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Aelian-Christopher-Matthew-ebook/dp/B00DN5V6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1537320523&sr=1-1&keywords=tactics+of+Aelian
What impressed me the most was how sophisticated Classical Greek and Hellenistic warfare actually was. Alexander's siege of Tyre as sophisticated a military operation as anything in the 18th century.
It was expected that military leaders would participate in battle and lead from the front. There were definitely times when the death of a commander in battle had an impact on the outcome of the battle or even the war. That's no more single combat between champions than Gustav Adolph dying at Lutzen, though.
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(https://i.redd.it/44495g3gp4n11.png)
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If you're really, really, really interested, read The Tactics of Aelian:
https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Aelian-Christopher-Matthew-ebook/dp/B00DN5V6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1537320523&sr=1-1&keywords=tactics+of+Aelian (https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Aelian-Christopher-Matthew-ebook/dp/B00DN5V6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1537320523&sr=1-1&keywords=tactics+of+Aelian)
how tough of a slog is this one to read thru?
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If you're really, really, really interested, read The Tactics of Aelian:
https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Aelian-Christopher-Matthew-ebook/dp/B00DN5V6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1537320523&sr=1-1&keywords=tactics+of+Aelian (https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Aelian-Christopher-Matthew-ebook/dp/B00DN5V6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1537320523&sr=1-1&keywords=tactics+of+Aelian)
how tough of a slog is this one to read thru?
The chapters/books are each fairly short and overall it isn't a really long work. There are pretty decent diagrams of formations. The translation I linked to is pretty good, though there are a lot - and I mean a lot - of technical terms for formations and roles that are in Greek.
Definitely not as easy a read as a modern text. For something written in Greek in the 2nd Century CE and translated into English? Not that bad.
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Would it not be cool to be able to read ancient Latin to get a better feel of those texts than through some translator?
I feel that my lessons would go something like this though....
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;D Always good for a laugh!
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I'm to the point where I'm seriously considering learning Latin, to be able to read original sources. I'm more likely to learn to read German and French first though. I've read through almost everything on 17th and 18th century warfare in English; there's a lot more in German and French I can't read!
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Yeah, but I think there's more to it than just being able to read the language. You'd really have to learn to understand the social standing of the writer, the cultural biases and influences of the times. There's a lot of nuance in trying to understand what a writer of a different language and time mean as compared to our modern interruptions.... if any of that makes sense....
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Yeah, but I think there's more to it than just being able to read the language. You'd really have to learn to understand the social standing of the writer, the cultural biases and influences of the times. There's a lot of nuance in trying to understand what a writer of a different language and time mean as compared to our modern interruptions.... if any of that makes sense....
All very true. The above applies when you read original source material in English, as well. The attitudes, beliefs, and opinions of officers and soldiers of the English, British, and American armies during the War of Spanish Succession or the AWI are very different than those of people today.
Having said that, once you get your head around the cultural milieu of the 18th century in Europe, it's a pretty universal thing, at least among soldiers. Prussian armies and officers are not notably different in how they see the world and their profession than English armies and officers. And let's face it, we're generally talking about descriptions of campaigns and battles here, or garrison duty, or lists of supplies. We aren't trying to puzzle out their well-considered musings on spirituality and philosophy when we're reading military history (usually). So that makes it a bit easier.
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Interesting idea though.
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Interesting article on Homeric command and weaponry.
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/09/28/homer-weaponry-and-command/
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Interesting article on Homeric command and weaponry.
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/09/28/homer-weaponry-and-command/ (https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/09/28/homer-weaponry-and-command/)
cool, thanks!
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good stuff :bigthumb:
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Yes, very informative :bigthumb:
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I demand boar tusk helmets fro everyone at Origins next year.
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Seconded!
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I demand boar tusk helmets fro everyone at Origins next year.
I'l make the manufacturing arrangements. You guys are required to supply the tusks, just like in the article.
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I'm sure Stagger can whip some up for us... ;)
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I'm sure Stagger can whip some up for us... ;)
with rounded corners
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I'm sure Stagger can whip some up for us... ;)
with rounded corners
candy-apple red or glow-in-the-dark? Maybe translucent and filled with teeny-tiny dice?