Armchair Dragoons Forums
Wargaming => The Modern World => Topic started by: judgedredd on January 23, 2021, 03:12:17 PM
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There is a problem with this game you know. A severe lack of Move/Fire counters.
I'm playing a pretty small scenario with not alot of impulses and I'm pretty low on them. Not out, but a bigger scenario i could imagine running out.
I do have others in the other boxes...but that means raiding them and then having to remember what box they're all in
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And in fact I actually have ran out...with an impulse each.
Poor design imo...I mean, I've only got 11 Fire/Move counters and there's 16 units (not including officers and NCOs who are stacked with units)
I thought there might be spares in the addon boxes...but they didn't even have the decency to do that for you.
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That's why I invested in a bunch of 8mm plastic cubes like this:
(https://www.printplaygames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/file3-9.jpeg)
Red for fired, yellow for moved, etc. I bought mine at Print & Play (https://www.printplaygames.com/product/plastic-cubes-8mm/) but I'm sure you can find them elsewhere online for cheap. Otherwise, you can use coins, buttons, whatever else.
Shame they don't provide enough of them though.
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I've got coloured discs I could use - but that ruins the aesthetics for me.
How much honestly would it have cost them per unit if they had put an additional counter sheet into the box? A couple of bucks? 5 bucks? The game's so popular it would still have sold.
Anyway - rant over. I'm going to go and try and not let it piss me off. :tickedoff:
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And in fact I actually have ran out...with an impulse each.
Poor design imo...I mean, I've only got 11 Fire/Move counters and there's 16 units (not including officers and NCOs who are stacked with units)
I thought there might be spares in the addon boxes...but they didn't even have the decency to do that for you.
I guarantee those scenarios were all play tested in VASSAL where you can create all the markers you need just by copying and pasting and no one went back into the reconciliation against what's actually in the box.
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That's not really my point Brant.
I hate when they scrimp on shit like this. This game definitely needs more than 11 of those counters.
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That's not really my point Brant.
I hate when they scrimp on shit like this. This game definitely needs more than 11 of those counters.
I totally got your point. You are absolutely right that it never should've shipped w/o enough markers to play!
I was merely offering my theory as to how it likely happened, given other places we've seen it also happen and why.
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FPG. TBP.
Shortage of markers.
:whistle:
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That's not really my point Brant.
I hate when they scrimp on shit like this. This game definitely needs more than 11 of those counters.
I totally got your point. You are absolutely right that it never should've shipped w/o enough markers to play!
I was merely offering my theory as to how it likely happened, given other places we've seen it also happen and why.
oic. Sorry - I thought you were suggesting I go to Vassal and print them off.
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oic. Sorry - I thought you were suggesting I go to Vassal and print them off.
Oh gawd, no.
That's sooooooooo not your responsibility.
I mean, you could do that, but the ideal solution would be for the publisher to do the right thing out the gate and ship the game with enough markers to play it.
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FPG. TBP.
Shortage of markers.
:whistle:
I am not savvy enough to know what those mean :2funny:
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Anyway - it's still a cracking game.
I just watched a video on YT and the guy got so many little things wrong...it was one of those videos that turns out more problematic than helpful.
On the one hand you're happy someone took the time to do it - but on the other, you just think it'll confuse people.
I'm really enjoying it though. I'm going to finish this wee scenario to try and enforce the rules and then I think I'll do an AAR for it.
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And in fact I actually have ran out...with an impulse each.
Poor design imo...I mean, I've only got 11 Fire/Move counters and there's 16 units (not including officers and NCOs who are stacked with units)
I thought there might be spares in the addon boxes...but they didn't even have the decency to do that for you.
I guarantee those scenarios were all play tested in VASSAL where you can create all the markers you need just by copying and pasting and no one went back into the reconciliation against what's actually in the box.
Since I built the module for the first OST and there is no module for the second, I can say that that didn't happen.
Don't let yer bias get the better of you.....
:whistle:
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It's nice to hear that. I've just seen a it happen a lot, and I'm not pointing fingers at any specific publisher, because I know of at least 3 different ones where it's happened.
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It's nice to hear that. I've just seen a it happen a lot, and I'm not pointing fingers at any specific publisher, because I know of at least 3 different ones where it's happened.
Me too. :bigthumb:
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There is a vassal module for 2 now...I downloaded it last night :nerd:
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Ok. Having had a few hours with the game, I have some thoughts. Please bear in mind some of these will be personal issues with me and I fully understand if they appear trivial to others.
- Already mentioned - not enough Move/Fire counters. I've also read someone mentioning Shaken and Broken - though not having a single unit shaken or broken as yet, I can't confirm that
- Map - these huge maps, not a huge fan. I had to flip this map upside down to play the small first scenario because it used a small portion at the top of the map. The alternative was to reach over the map. Had the map been broken up into sections rather than folded, it would be much more manageable
- Manual. It's clearly written in that particular game mechanics are well explained, but the sections don't always reference other sections in the manual. For example, Combat Results mentions Gut Check...but it doesn't tell you where Gut Check is in the manual
- That brings me onto my next gripe - index. The index is no use. It's not in alphabetical order. It's written in the order of the sections in the manual. How is that helpful? If I want to see where Gut Check is, I can't look under G in the index - because it's not in that order...so I have to scan the entire index to look for Gut Check to see what page it's on
- Staying with the manual - it looks like the counter issue wasn't the only thing used to save money. It does look like the manual has been squeezed onto the least amount of pages...this is mainly apparent on the back page where a Turn Sequence is laid out in more detail...it just seems to be squeezed onto the last page. A detailed Turn Sequences should've been a Player Aid card. It's also apparent on every page where the text on each page starts right at the top...no margin
Someone has very nicely created a proper index for the manual which will help when looking for a section.
On the plus side, the game components are very nice (I know some people have issues with font ;) ) but I think they're nice. The map is beautiful - if too big imo. Obviously big maps are cool for big games (The US Civil War - it doesn't make sense to break that map up) but where you have smaller scenarios, I prefer the smaller geomorphic maps.
Also game play is nice and really quite simple and it did not take long for me to get it setup and running. Not a huge amount of modifiers.
I am really pissed about the counters though. Not just about there not being enough - but the fact they knew this and couldn't be bothered including any in any of their addition modules (ok...I only checked Ghost Front - but I'd be surprised if there are any in Airborne).
I'm going under my desk today to grab the other one (V3) and I'll take all the administration counters that are applicable across both and put them in a tray - labelled OST - so it doesn't bug me anymore.
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Ok...just emptied my OST V3 box for Fired/Moved markers and there were alot more present in that box. There were 11 in OST Vol2 and 24 in OST Vol 3
SO they did something right...though you have to splurge nigh on £100 to discover they did the right thing. There's a little sceptical beastie in ma heed that's suggesting there was a plan.
Anyway - I've got my counters so I can stop stressing whilst I'm playing whether I'm going to run out or not.
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As I own OST Vol 3, that's good to hear! :bigthumb:
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I've got OST 1 + Stalingrad expansion and OST II + Airborne + Ghost Front + Phantom Division. With those I have enough info markers to run even the large scenarios.
Pacific doesn't interest me so I didn't get that on.
Next volume however is supposed to Commonwealth in Italy :D
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I don't know about the other expansions, but Ghost Front came with one sheet of counters and they were units. No admin counters.
Unless I already raised it...but I don't think so.
I've got OST 2, Ghost Front, OST 3 and Hell Bent and I was toying with getting Airborne just then
Does anyone know what the numbers and letters mean on these hex descriptions on the map? The numbers look like the defence bonus...but I don't know what the letters mean
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Letters: B- LOS blocking, D- LOS degrading. Numbers are defence modifiers.
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Thanks
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I have to say this was extremely easy to pick up and play...even given the bad manual layout and lack of decent index - the core of the game is extremely simple.
I thought it was going to be a nightmare to learn - I'm very glad I got it onto the table and it's made me look forward to giving Armageddon a go.
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I have to say this was extremely easy to pick up and play...even given the bad manual layout and lack of decent index - the core of the game is extremely simple.
I thought it was going to be a nightmare to learn - I'm very glad I got it onto the table and it's made me look forward to giving Armageddon a go.
OST is great, simple fun to play.
Armageddon is a completely different system, and for me, not as fun or straightforward to play.
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I made the stupid assumption as it was made by the same people there would at least be similarities!!
Ah well.....I'm still looking forward to getting it on the table (and moaning about lack of counters as it's the same publisher!)
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OST is a Shayne Logan design, published by Flying Pig Games.
Armageddon War is a Greg Porter design, published by Flying Pig Games.
They are completely different game designs.
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Barth...as you've played this...
When a shaken unit with a support weapon opens fire, is the 1/2FP for the inherent FP or is it for the complete FP?
So German squad with LMG = [4FP + 2FP support weapon] = 6FP
Does shaken change this to 4FP [1/2x4FP + 2FP support weapon] or to 3FP [1/2x(4FP + 2FP support weapon)]?
NM - Norm replied swiftly on BGG and it's 1/2 the total FP
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I just lucked into a copy of OSTv2 and Airborne. Haven't had a chance to get them to the table (if I can get my son to game, it's War of the Ring... I really can't complain), but was wondering if there were any decent videos on the game. I know Stuka Joe did a 2-part series on it and he's usually on top of things. Are those a good starting spot? Or is there a different video that might go into more game play examples? I tend to do a little better at picking things up from videos than I do just sitting down with the rules, so looking to watch a bit before I crack open the rulebook.
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I honestly can't remember the videos I watched - but Stuka Joe's are certainly a good starting point.
I often luck onto a few and then find there are errors in the gameplay - as we are all aware can happen. So I find reading the rules and then watching a video or two helps because if something isn't right in the video - and I spot it - I can double check what I understood the rule to be and whether the video has it properly down or whether I understood the rule correctly.
But yeah - manuals on there own are meh...I just can't take things in like I used to
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Having scanned through the rules, it strikes me that this has elements from LnL, CoH, CC and BoB.
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Having scanned through the rules, it strikes me that this has elements from LnL, CoH, CC and BoB.
I believe I came to the same conclusion...certainly with LnL and CoH
At the risk of being chased out of the gaming world forever, what is CC? I can't get Close Combat out of my head - but I'm sure you ain't referring to that...and I bet I know what CC is when you tell me!
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CC = Combat Commander
https://www.gmtgames.com/p-703-combat-commander-europe-4th-printing.aspx
Card driven squad level combat.
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Having scanned through the rules, it strikes me that this has elements from LnL, CoH, CC and BoB.
They all have elements of each other.
I find OST the easiest to play. More stream lined rules, less chrome. The impulse point system makes for some battlefield uncertainty which I like but some people not so much. Sometime you just don't get enough impulses in a turn to do what you want or need.
The unit pieces are large and easy to read, great for old guys like us. And I love the huge maps, while other complain they are too big for small scenarios.
I have them all except Pacific... neve was interested in that front much... except for naval/carrier battles.
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The only one that interests me is Vol II and maybe the Ghost Div & Abn add-ons. I do wish some of these games would include UK and Commonwealth forces though. I would have been quite happy to stay with BoB if Worthington had continued to put out more expansions. I really like the BoB system.
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Vol II and the Airborne expansion are my favourite so far.
Shayne has said that he's working on a British and Commonwealth module.. but I don't know the timing.
Something like the Italian campaign would be great.
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Or the Scheldt and maybe Operation Veritable.
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Or the Scheldt and maybe Operation Veritable.
:bigthumb:
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Or the Scheldt and maybe Operation Veritable.
What is Scheldt? (https://www.aarcentral.com/emoti/hide3.gif) :P
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:tickedoff: >:( :whistle: :biggrin: :waah:
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When are we TTSing!
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^Good question. For which game?
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Or the Scheldt and maybe Operation Veritable.
What is Scheldt? (https://www.aarcentral.com/emoti/hide3.gif) :P
A little furry animal, about so big.
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They are notorious for hiding under chairs and for imitating the sound of dykes collapsing.
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The more I play OST (Vol II) the more I like it :-)
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:bigthumb:
I quite liked it - but either I was playing it wrong, or I was just shite at it. I didn't win much in the games I played. Second mission was a pure ****
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Just arrived today; 'Phantom Division' expansion.
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:bigthumb:
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Just arrived today; 'Phantom Division' expansion.
:applause:
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Typical!
Scenario 6 has a set-up error, and is missing a counter for the Tiger I, and also no data cards for either the Flak 30 or Flak 36 included in the game.
:tickedoff:
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has anyone else reported it, that it's a consistent problem? or is it just you got a packing error?
(mind you, I'm primarily inclined to think what I know you're thinking; I just want to be balanced about the assumptions)
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Typical!
Scenario 6 has a set-up error, and is missing a counter for the Tiger I, and also no data cards for either the Flak 30 or Flak 36 included in the game.
:tickedoff:
The Tiger 1 was not supplied with Phantom Division, it came in OST Vol. 2. So the counter is not "missing" it's just in the main game that is a requirement to play Phantom Div.
There were no data cards supplied with Phantom Division for either the Flak 30 or Flak 36. Why, I don't know. So those are not "missing" either.
Oh, and in scenario 4 it should be "Flak 36" in both places.
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Thanks, Vance, much appreciated. However, there is no Tiger I counter with Vol II for one thing, and, the point that I find really annoying is that the game info states that Phantom Division has new cards included, but clearly this is not the case, and ,as stated, the is no Tiger counter either although there is one required in scenario 6.
The details on FPG website are therefore misleading as it does not indicate that anything other than Vol II is required to play Phantom Division.
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bummer that there's no countersheet photo on BGG to check it against...
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There is. But you don't know you need the missing bits until you buy the game and try and play the scenarios. There are no illustrations of the cards so again, you don't know there are 'missing' until you buy the game.
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/6100488/old-school-tactical-phantom-division
This contravenes the Trades Description Act. The game purports to need only Vol II to play, which is not the case. I, as the purchaser of a product, have been mislead as to the contents of the expansion. :tickedoff:
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bummer that there's no countersheet photo on BGG to check it against...
Maybe I need to do an unboxing!
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If you just have OST Vol II, then no problem, although there are a couple of errors on the set-up info on some scenario's, the problems I have encountered all are with the Phantom Division expansion.
The FPG website does say that you need to download the data card for the StuG III, but it does not tell you that you also need a Tiger I counter and data cards for the Flak 30 and Flak 36, and I can see no downloads for these on the website or BGG.
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So, I sent an email a few days ago to FPG with a query about the cards, etc. No reply as yet.
So much for customer service!
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::)
;)
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::)
;)
Corrected;
FPG about OST'
:face:
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I've no idea what you have to do to get a reply from FPG.
I've asked on BGG, CSW and their FB page and also sent them a email via their website 'contact us' function.
Customer service?