Armchair Dragoons Forums
Wargaming => 4X Gaming => Topic started by: Martok on March 01, 2021, 12:45:05 PM
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Read the article here (https://explorminate.co/our-top-ten-4x-games-of-all-time-list/).
Of if you prefer watching the video version:
For those who really just want a TL;DR summary:
1.) Distant Worlds: Universe
2.) Master of Orion 1/Remnants of the Precursors
3.) Sid Meier's Civilization IV
4.) Master of Magic
5.) Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
6.) Endless Legend
7.) Sword of the Stars
8.) Galactic Civilizations 2
9.) Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes
10.) Master of Orion 2: Battle at Antares
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Personally, I'd say it's a good list overall. And whatever one might say about the game, I do believe DW:U has earned its spot at the top. At the very least, I can easily understand why they ranked it #1.
My main beef is that Stellaris is not on the list; in fact, I find its exclusion baffling. I would probably swap it out with either SotS or FE:LH, as I do question whether those two games deserve to be on there (much as I personally adore the latter).
I don't say that because I enjoy Stellaris, either. (If I were to judge the list based on how much I personally like these games -- or not -- then Endless Legend, Sword of the Stars, and MOO2 wouldn't be on the list at all.) But ever since release, the game has had such an immediate and outsized impact on the genre -- partially (and precisely) *because* it doesn't entirely follow your standard 4x formula -- that its inclusion in any "all time greatest" list seems pretty much obligatory.
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Anytime you start with an all-time top 10 list, it's going to be inherently flawed regardless of how you try to couch it.
If you simply say "here are 10 great games" and you're not trying to rank them, then it's a much less contentious article while still talking about games you really like.
Either way though, their space roots are absolutely showing here as there seems to be an unbalanced against the historical games and their fantasy spin-offs
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I would be curious why they didn't include one of the EU titles in this list.
I'm not sure I would have put DWU in the #1 slot. Not sure who I would have though. I've been playing it again. While I enjoy it, there are some very frustrating and glaring issues with it.
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Anytime you start with an all-time top 10 list, it's going to be inherently flawed regardless of how you try to couch it.
If you simply say "here are 10 great games" and you're not trying to rank them, then it's a much less contentious article while still talking about games you really like.
Either way though, their space roots are absolutely showing here as there seems to be an unbalanced against the historical games and their fantasy spin-offs
This. And then throw in the fact that it's an Explorminate article...
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No Warlock I or II?
Tut.
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I keep hearing people say Civ IV was the better of than Civ games...why? What changed that left that one king?
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No idea. I'm one of the ones that think it's improved with each release. I do know that some people hate the 'one unit per tile' change so that could be part of it.
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i think it was 4 you were resource dependant - didnt have iron? no armour for you, no horses? no cav units and you had to find these resources or trade for them - made it much more immersive for me
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i think it was 4 you were resource dependant - didnt have iron? no armour for you, no horses? no cav units and you had to find these resources or trade for them - made it much more immersive for me
You need the same in VI....
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i think it was 4 you were resource dependant - didnt have iron? no armour for you, no horses? no cav units and you had to find these resources or trade for them - made it much more immersive for me
This is exactly the case in VI and with the ‘one unit per tile’ the turtle tactic of doom stacks is mitigated.
Yes, the overal flow has become more boardgame-like over computer strategy game-like in the traditional sense, but I am firmly in the camp of VI is King.
Lots of strategies work, lots of goals to pursue and with the two expansions there is lots of variability in a game of Civ.
I ‘ve loved or liked every Civ so far, but 6 is the most fun I’ve had.
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Yeah, and Civ6 keeps getting better. :bigthumb:
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Either way though, their space roots are absolutely showing here as there seems to be an unbalanced against the historical games and their fantasy spin-offs
A couple points...
1.) Space 4x titles make up only half the games on that list.
2.) I suspect that -- directly or indirectly -- this is at least partially due to how many 4x games are set in space (versus historical, fantasy, etc.). Given the numbers, sheer Law of Averages meant that at least a plurality of the games on the list were probably going to be space 4x titles.
I would be curious why they didn't include one of the EU titles in this list.
Because they're not 4x games. The EU series are grand-strategy, just like the rest of Paradox's portfolio (Stellaris being the lone exception).
I'm not sure I would have put DWU in the #1 slot. Not sure who I would have though. I've been playing it again. While I enjoy it, there are some very frustrating and glaring issues with it.
DWU admittedly isn't my personal #1 either; I would rank it either 2nd or 3rd on my own list. However, given the degree to which a lot of folks *do* enjoy the game, combined with the overall influence/impact it's had on the genre (which was one of the criteria used to select their games for the list), I can see why it made the top spot.
I keep hearing people say Civ IV was the better of than Civ games...why? What changed that left that one king?
It was the last Civ game where the AI was decent (and without obvious cheating), and it doesn't look cartoony like Civ VI. It was also the last game in the series to not inflict that 1UPT nonsense on the player. :bringit:
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Good list. I agree with replacing SotS with Stellaris. SotS was good, but not top ten good. And as a Civ player since the original, I agree with bbmike that it improves with each release. Once a new Civ rolls out, I never go back to a prior version.
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It was the last Civ game where the AI was decent (and without obvious cheating), and it doesn't look cartoony like Civ VI. It was also the last game in the series to not inflict that 1UPT nonsense on the player. :bringit:
You are just wrong here. The only reason the AI was good in Civ IV was the "stacks of doom".. and don't kid yerself about he game not cheating in IV. :bringit:
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If my choices are doom-stacks or one-unit-per-tile/hex, I'll take the former any day of the week. Not that either is ideal, granted, but I've consistently found stacks to be the lesser of two evils: They're less immersion-breaking than 1UPT, and they're generally better for AI -- which you already alluded to (so thanks for help making my point 8) ).
And I never claimed the AI in Civ IV doesn't cheat; I said it wasn't *obvious* about it, which is an important distinction. An AI that manages to not be obvious about the fact that it's cheating, is good for a game's sense of immersion.
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I'll agree to disagree with you.
But yer wrong.
>:D
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I would be curious why they didn't include one of the EU titles in this list.
Because EU games are not 4x games.
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Either way though, their space roots are absolutely showing here as there seems to be an unbalanced against the historical games and their fantasy spin-offs
Thing is that there are more space 4x than anything else. In terms of 4x historical games, there are almost only the Civilization games.
Edit: note to myself. Always read the answers from Martok before answering. :whistle:
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I keep hearing people say Civ IV was the better of than Civ games...why? What changed that left that one king?
I think that there are many reasons for it and the game is, among CIV fans, often considered the best. I think it's probably the most complete game of the lot and offers a lot of modding options. The CIV i've played the most is CIV 6 which i really like but i do believe that CIV 4 deserves to be on the list.
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Personally, I'd say it's a good list overall. And whatever one might say about the game, I do believe DW:U has earned its spot at the top. At the very least, I can easily understand why they ranked it #1.
My main beef is that Stellaris is not on the list; in fact, I find its exclusion baffling. I would probably swap it out with either SotS or FE:LH, as I do question whether those two games deserve to be on there (much as I personally adore the latter).
I don't say that because I enjoy Stellaris, either. (If I were to judge the list based on how much I personally like these games -- or not -- then Endless Legend, Sword of the Stars, and MOO2 wouldn't be on the list at all.) But ever since release, the game has had such an immediate and outsized impact on the genre -- partially (and precisely) *because* it doesn't entirely follow your standard 4x formula -- that its inclusion in any "all time greatest" list seems pretty much obligatory.
You are right, I think Stellaris deserves a place on the top 10 list and i was surprised it didn't show up but frankly, i think the ones in the top 10 list do deserve the place too though i don't know Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes very well. These games marked the industry, were different and had a big influence on the public, just like Stellaris.
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Its possible that i have mentioned this before, but............................I have never played any of the Civ games : :whistle:
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Its possible that i have mentioned this before, but............................I have never played any of the Civ games : :whistle:
Weirdo.... :peace:
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Its possible that i have mentioned this before, but............................I have never played any of the Civ games : :whistle:
Any specific reason for that?
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See the post above yours. :2funny:
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What's missing from an EU game that doesn't make it a 4x.
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What's missing from an EU game that doesn't make it a 4x.
EU games have already defined borders and cities when you start. In a 4x you start with one city/planet, a colonizer/colonist and a couple of scouts.
That's why Paradox invented the term "Grand Strategy Games" for games that are not 4x. Total War games are not 4x games either.
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I'll agree to disagree with you.
But yer wrong.
>:D
Sure, whatever you say.
Apostate. :biggrin:
Edit: note to myself. Always read the answers from Martok before answering. :whistle:
Hahaha! And here I was trying to save you a few keystrokes. ;)
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You are right, I think Stellaris deserves a place on the top 10 list and i was surprised it didn't show up but frankly, i think the ones in the top 10 list do deserve the place too though i don't know Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes very well. These games marked the industry, were different and had a big influence on the public, just like Stellaris.
Fully agreed.
B4TTLEMODE provided an...interesting explanation (https://www.reddit.com/r/4Xgaming/comments/lv97vy/explorminates_top_ten_4x_games_of_all_time_list/gpe9wh8/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to my query on Reddit as to why Stellaris was excluded from the list, yet Endless Legend was included. While he lists some very valid problems with Stellaris, it still feels like a double-standard was applied where those two games were concerned, and/or that Rob & co. were looking for almost any excuse to keep Stellaris off the list, though I can't imagine they were consciously aware of doing so.
On a different note: The more I've thought about it, the more convinced I am that -- as much as it pains me to say it -- Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes has no business being on this list.
For all that FE:LH is my favorite fantasy 4x, and is in my personal Top Five 4x games overall, I just don't think its impact/influence on the genre is in any way near what most of the others can boast, nor is there anything terribly revolutionary about its design or mechanics. It's simply a well-made, well-designed game...with the occasional bug or two. :P But to place it among the all-time greats would be a mistake.
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Its possible that i have mentioned this before, but............................I have never played any of the Civ games : :whistle:
That's all right. You're still our Bawb. :)
What's missing from an EU game that doesn't make it a 4x.
A randomized map where you don't already know where everything is (geographically speaking). And as Anguille pointed out, the starting conditions are different as well.
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EU4 does have a random New World option. 8)
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It’s been a while but I don’t think there’s any exterminating in eu either - Austria will always be Austria it’s just a case of who owns it
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It’s been a while but I don’t think there’s any exterminating in eu either - Austria will always be Austria it’s just a case of who owns it
Aye, but games like Stellaris and DW:U don't require you to exterminate anyone. So should those game be disqualified from being 4X
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It’s been a while but I don’t think there’s any exterminating in eu either - Austria will always be Austria it’s just a case of who owns it
Aye, but games like Stellaris and DW:U don't require you to exterminate anyone. So should those game be disqualified from being 4X
you don't have to exterminate anyone in a Civ game, but it can be cathartic to do so :biggrin:
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They're still 4x games since extermination is always an option, even if that's not the path you choose to take to win. It's pretty much a mandatory victory condition in a 4x title.
In addition, I again refer back to Anguille's comments on starting conditions.
It’s been a while but I don’t think there’s any exterminating in eu either - Austria will always be Austria it’s just a case of who owns it
Aye, but games like Stellaris and DW:U don't require you to exterminate anyone. So should those game be disqualified from being 4X
you don't have to exterminate anyone in a Civ game, but it can be cathartic to do so :biggrin:
Also, this. >:D
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It’s been a while but I don’t think there’s any exterminating in eu either - Austria will always be Austria it’s just a case of who owns it
Aye, but games like Stellaris and DW:U don't require you to exterminate anyone. So should those game be disqualified from being 4X
The expression was created for Master of Orion by Alan Emrich. But MOO has also a diplomatic type of victory which is the one i usually choose. I like to have some warfare in my 4x games but i never go the eXtermination way. I usually don't play so much the 4x that have almost only this option (Swords of the Stars, Polaris Sector etc.)....maybe because i am not so good at it.....