Armchair Dragoons Forums
Wargaming => The Modern World => Topic started by: bob48 on December 30, 2021, 06:45:55 AM
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And no, I'm not referring to all that turkey, Christmas pudding and mince pies that I've eaten.............
I've long had an interest in the Ardennes Offensive and have extensively read about it and gamed it, and long ago came to the conclusion that single map, divisional size games on the subject just are not able to depict the battle in a meaningful way.
Recently, I was given a copy of 'Battle of the Bulge' the first game from Compass in their 'WWII Commander' series, and this is a single map, area movement game with mainly division size units. It uses a pretty simple impulse system and is very easy to learn, and although it has one-or-two interesting aspects, I found it to be a very dull and uninteresting product.
The mounted map is ok albeit a little bland, and although it depicts a very basic road nett, and some of the major towns and other significant features, the scale results in the omission of all those little towns and villages that are an important feature of the region and played such a large part in the battle.
The unit counters are, frankly, boring. Black silhouettes on a coloured background may be fine for some, but I found them to be very poorly designed. In addition, the units all have a strange grey 'ghosted' version of the unit insignia which does nothing to enhance the visual appeal at all. Adding the badge in colour would have gone a long way to adding a bit of interest to the game.
I also found it a bit odd that they should class the US Cav units as 'Mechanised Infantry' and why correctly label Panzer Divisions as such but then label Panzer Grenadier Division Mechanised Infantry? Yes, alright, technically I know that's what they were, but at least refer to them correctly. This may seem like rivet-counting and nit-picking, but I found it to be annoying and...amateurish,
What proved to be a real game killer to me was that after several plays I found that it was pretty much impossible for the German player to NOT take St Vith early on the 16th December. Since each 'impulse' represents only a very short space of time, and there are many such impulses in a turn, then the German player would have to either be daft or do nothing at all to not get a panzer div into an unoccupied St Vith 'area' almost at the start of the game. When you consider that in reality the forces there held on until the 21st December, and the defence of the town caused a significant disruption to the German plan, then to my mind, there is a very real design fault somewhere.
I fully accept that these views are mine alone and others may well disagree with them. As a very easy to play game with little real reference to the actual battle, then fine, it may provide a couple of hours of entertainment, but if you are looking for a serious approach to the subject, then I would advise that you look elsewhere.
Certainly, if the games BGG forums are anything to go by, there are people who think highly of the game, but I aint one of them.
As a parting shot, I also felt that the production values of the game, despite the mounted board and large counters, were not up to the sort of standard that you would expect from Compass Games. Again, I emphasise that these are my views and mine alone, and others may well disagree, which is fine.
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The unit counters are, frankly, boring. Black silhouettes on a coloured background may be fine for some, but I found them to be very poorly designed. In addition, the units all have a strange grey 'ghosted' version of the unit insignia which does nothing to enhance the visual appeal at all. Adding the bade in colour would have gone a long way to adding a bit of interest to the game.
All good points; this one is in particular (IMO anyway). I'm not a fan of silhouettes on my counters either as it looks amateurish and unimaginative. I own maybe one game that does this.
The map on this one is area movement, I think. Not a huge fan of that either, but it's not nearly the negative IMO as silhouettes on counters, as long as the art is decent.
And I'm with you on the 'mechanized infantry/Panzer grenadier' thing too.
I've looked at this one a couple of times but have enough Bulge games to where something would really need to add a lot to make me want to buy it, and this one just doesn't do that. The only other one on my radar is Enemy Action Ardennes.
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Yeah - I wrote about this back in October
https://www.armchairdragoons.com/forum/index.php?topic=169.msg79680#msg79680
I was initially enamoured with it's ease of play - but in the end it got boring very quickly and I concur with most of bob's post. I'm surprised at it's high score on BGG (which was a reason for purchase - I wanted something light to dive into for such a complex battle). It was far too light for me. I played it twice (maybe 3 times)
I've read a couple of books on the subject - but alas nothing ever sticks in my head now so it's never easy for me to say when a game replicates the battle in any real way. Unit dispositions, units present even, breakthroughs made, defences held - all things that I never recall.
It struck me as a game I would've loved to play with my brother back when we were in our early teens. It's very easy to learn and I would imagine would keep a couple of teenagers uneducated in the battle busy for a few plays.
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Yikes. What's currently considered the best Battle of the Bulge games?
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For what it’s worth, this game was originally designed and released as an iPad game. I have it and it’s a fun small Bulge game, and I don’t like Bulge games.
https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/battle-of-the-bulge/id521833787
It is very high level and abstract as it was designed to be fast playing.
I never did think it would translate well into a board game when I heard that was going to happen.
Been a while since I played but I’m sure the Germans could not take St. vita on the first turn, so maybe you’ve got a rule wrong somewhere Bob.
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I thought that looked a little familiar. I had that app and played it years ago, but found it impossible to make virtually any progress.
There was another version that dealt with the Battle of Moscow, which I found to be much easier to win.
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I still have the Bulge one on my iPad and do play occasionally. It’s harder than it looks to win as either side.
I had the Russian front one too but I found it to be not as much fun…YMMV.
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For what it’s worth, this game was originally designed and released as an iPad game. I have it and it’s a fun small Bulge game, and I don’t like Bulge games.
https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/battle-of-the-bulge/id521833787
It is very high level and abstract as it was designed to be fast playing.
I never did think it would translate well into a board game when I heard that was going to happen.
Been a while since I played but I’m sure the Germans could not take St. vita on the first turn, so maybe you’ve got a rule wrong somewhere Bob.
Vance, I can assure you that I have not got a rule wrong. I'll give you a game on Vassal if you want :-) I may even play it out and post here to demonstrate what I am saying......
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/2774970/st-vith
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Yikes. What's currently considered the best Battle of the Bulge games?
Much depends on how much room you have and how much detail you want. For me, the best one is 'Bitter Woods' although 'Ardennes '44' is also very good. Both have 2 maps and are basically regimental scale. If you can find it, the old 'Ardennes' SCS game from MMP is good and again is a similar scale to the other 2 games mentioned.
Watch am Rhine by SPI ( and now Decision Games) is a 4 map battalion level game, and one of the original 'monsters' I played this a lot, back in the day.
Even bigger is 'A time for Trumpets' which I think is 5 maps and a huge number of counters.
I have played some smaller scenario's from 'Last Blitzkrieg' which is one of MMP's games from the BCS series. This is a very good game indeed but takes a bit more learning.
Obviously there are a few others out there, but those are the ones which spring to mind.
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For what it’s worth, this game was originally designed and released as an iPad game. I have it and it’s a fun small Bulge game, and I don’t like Bulge games.
https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/battle-of-the-bulge/id521833787
It is very high level and abstract as it was designed to be fast playing.
I never did think it would translate well into a board game when I heard that was going to happen.
Been a while since I played but I’m sure the Germans could not take St. vita on the first turn, so maybe you’ve got a rule wrong somewhere Bob.
Vance, I can assure you that I have not got a rule wrong. I'll give you a game on Vassal if you want :-) I may even play it out and post here to demonstrate what I am saying......
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/2774970/st-vith
Hmmm… that BGG post seems to agree with me… ;)
I’d love to have a game with you on VASSAL. We’ll make it a spectacle here for all to see. :bigthumb:
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Actually, the BGG post agrees with me.
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So, when do we play? :)
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Thanks, Bob. I'll keep those in mind.
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So, when do we play? :)
Install the mod, download the rules and name yer time :-)
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Nudge, nudge, Vance. Or have you gone into a long Canadian hibernation?
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Maybe he's realised you're right :whistle: :nerd:
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More like he's forgotten that he threw down the gauntlet :-)
He's much busier since he retired..................
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More like he's forgotten that he threw down the gauntlet :-)
He's much busier since he retired..................
That sounds depressing :doh:
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JD, best not let your pal see the thread about the Italian Campaign game, as I'm sure the temptation might be too much for him. :whistle:
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;D
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JD, best not let your pal see the thread about the Italian Campaign game, as I'm sure the temptation might be too much for him. :whistle:
I've told him. Too late...he'd already seen it but he's staying steadfast in his route away from financial ruin this year...though he did admit he's just bought The Last Hundred Yards:The Solomon Islands
Apparently though he's back on track
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::)
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JD, best not let your pal see the thread about the Italian Campaign game, as I'm sure the temptation might be too much for him. :whistle:
I've told him. Too late...he'd already seen it but he's staying steadfast in his route away from financial ruin this year...though he did admit he's just bought The Last Hundred Yards:The Solomon Islands
Apparently though he's back on track
:2thumbs:
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More like he's forgotten that he threw down the gauntlet :-)
He's much busier since he retired..................
:whistle:
I have downloaded the VASSAL mod and the rules. I’m gonna play the iPad version first to see if there is any difference.
And no, I still Bob is not right… maybe … :nerd:
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Its up to you to prove me wrong, innit?
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Is this the Armchair Dragoons' version of standing around a schoolyard chanting "Fight! Fight! Fight!"
I say, Mr. Bob ol' chap, smack 'im in the schnoz!
Good gravy, Vance, m' boy, will you just stand by while he spreads libel like that about Canadian winter customs?
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;D
:bigthumb:
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I'm just standing here, tapping of the foots, folding of the arms, while Vance plays with his ipad.......
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Alright.. I just played a few games on the iPad and… I hate to admit it… but I must take back all the nasty things I’ve been telling people about Bob. :-[
He’s right, you can’t defend St. Vith as was done historically. It will always fall on the 16th not the 21st as really happened.
Not sure if it’s the scale this game uses or just the author’s bias as to the importance of St. Vith but it does seem like a odd choice for such a famously studied and gamed battle.
:notworthy:
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Yup, there is no getting around it. The board game is exactly the same.
What's really sad about this is that a publisher of quality games, and a well know designer can turn out such a very poor product. I'd be tempted to say that they lost interest in it and never really finished it off and didn't ever really play test it.
What's worse is the number of 'gamers' on BGG who sing the games praises even though it is so evidently flawed.
Takes all sorts, I guess.
However, I am vindicated, my integrity remains intact and my reputation relatively untarnished.
I rest my case - thank you, Vance. :notworthy:
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What's worse is the number of 'gamers' on BGG who sing the games praises even though it is so evidently flawed.
It was ratings and posts that made me buy it. In the end, regardless of historical accuracy, it was far too simple for me. I enjoyed my first playthrough, but after that, it was just not holding my interest.
I think that's the first Bulge boardgame I've ever played
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I've no problem with simple, easy to play games, which this obviously is, and maybe pitched as an entry level game, but I think its a great pity that a game so distorts history to the point that it does not reflect that historical event in any meaningful way.
Again, I stress that this is my view and other may well disagree, which is fine.