Author Topic: Collected "Cyrano on a Rant" thread  (Read 13556 times)

Metaldog

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 2370
  • Central Scrutinizer
Reply #75 on: December 13, 2021, 12:35:31 PM
The jig is up, the news is out
They finally found me
The renegade
Who had it made
Betrayed for a bounty

Any time, my friend.  Any time.  And a damn fine article.

Lots of maps is a good thing - Panzerde


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator, Pilkunnussija
  • Administrator
  • Lead Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 12478
  • Onward and upward
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #76 on: December 28, 2021, 11:07:16 AM
Collecting all of the feedback threads for Cyrano's "Rant-y" articles, since it's kind of a series at this point  :groovy:



Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator, Pilkunnussija
  • Administrator
  • Lead Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 12478
  • Onward and upward
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #77 on: December 28, 2021, 11:08:35 AM

Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator, Pilkunnussija
  • Administrator
  • Lead Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 12478
  • Onward and upward
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #78 on: January 31, 2022, 09:47:22 AM

Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.


mcguire

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 938
  • Shoes for industry!
Reply #79 on: January 31, 2022, 05:42:33 PM
Point of order!  :tickedoff:

Quote
One more thing if I might?  Some will have noticed a lack of fantasy and sci-fi games.  This is not an accidental omission.  I am now more convinced than I was when I said it on “Mentioned in Dispatches” that both these have headed off into the hobby space.  Taking only the most obvious example, Twilight Imperium is an order of magnitude more complex than a lot of what gets fobbed off as a “wargame” these days and yet it is played by many who turn up their noses at consims.  These two genres have adopted the forms and assumptions of hobby games.  Their wargaming DNA is there, but it is far harder to discern.

Are we talking wargames from the past, or current products? 'Cause I don't recall Battletech, or Ogre/GEV, or Car Wars (well, ok, I'll give you Car Wars), being especially "hobby" (or even complex), at least back in their heyday. Or the Star Wars minis games which I know nothing about because I detest intellectual-property-moneygrabs. Heck, Star Fleet Battles might be considered as "essential" as Squad Leader, and if anyone has a problem with that I'll go buy the Compleat ASL rules, print them out, and drop them on your car leaving it flatter than a fritter. And no love for Dune, Starship Troopers, or Starfire? How about the more modern iterations of War of the Ring? Root? (I don't know enough about Root, but it seems awfully different from most "hobby" games.)

Finally, I would like to point out that the Cold War Gone Hot industry started out as science fiction and is now either SF or fantasy, depending on one's viewpoint, and that the Game Formerly Known As Fleet Marine Force is not historical.

 :bringit:  :v

 ;)

"Man...knowing how to use the cards properly certainly changes how I play the game" -- judgedredd


BanzaiCat

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Lance Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 6391
  • Puns Puns Puns Puns
Reply #80 on: January 31, 2022, 07:37:00 PM
10 essential wargames

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/analysis/essential-wargames-there-are-many-such-lists-but-this-one-is-mine/

I have Panzergruppe Guderian from that list...had it since the 80s. I've wanted Wilderness Survival but it usually commands high prices.



Cyrano

  • Corporal
  • **
  • Posts: 1627
  • JK Actual
    • Kriegsspieler
Reply #81 on: January 31, 2022, 07:41:19 PM
Point of order!  :tickedoff:

Quote
One more thing if I might?  Some will have noticed a lack of fantasy and sci-fi games.  This is not an accidental omission.  I am now more convinced than I was when I said it on “Mentioned in Dispatches” that both these have headed off into the hobby space.  Taking only the most obvious example, Twilight Imperium is an order of magnitude more complex than a lot of what gets fobbed off as a “wargame” these days and yet it is played by many who turn up their noses at consims.  These two genres have adopted the forms and assumptions of hobby games.  Their wargaming DNA is there, but it is far harder to discern.

Are we talking wargames from the past, or current products? 'Cause I don't recall Battletech, or Ogre/GEV, or Car Wars (well, ok, I'll give you Car Wars), being especially "hobby" (or even complex), at least back in their heyday. Or the Star Wars minis games which I know nothing about because I detest intellectual-property-moneygrabs. Heck, Star Fleet Battles might be considered as "essential" as Squad Leader, and if anyone has a problem with that I'll go buy the Compleat ASL rules, print them out, and drop them on your car leaving it flatter than a fritter. And no love for Dune, Starship Troopers, or Starfire? How about the more modern iterations of War of the Ring? Root? (I don't know enough about Root, but it seems awfully different from most "hobby" games.)

Finally, I would like to point out that the Cold War Gone Hot industry started out as science fiction and is now either SF or fantasy, depending on one's viewpoint, and that the Game Formerly Known As Fleet Marine Force is not historical.

 :bringit:  :v

 ;)

I'll start with the easy part:  "Cold War Gone Hot", as I said in the podcast on the topic is damned hard to figure because history has caught up.  Even Twilight 2k felt it had to change the timeline.

As to SCIFI/Fantasy, you all but prove my point.  All of those you mention, with the notable exception of WotR, which is a fair cop, are retro.  Where are there contemporary peers in the wargame space?  Hint: they left and shut the door behind them  And no, the 14th edition of either OGRE or Car Wars does not count.  If you want to tell me CW 6e is a wargame, well...

Sergeant-at-Arms - Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Negotiator of the fragile peace between Ruritania and Strakenz

Weeple Herder to the Emperor


bbmike

  • Warrant Officer
  • Lance Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 7114
    • My Own Worst Enemy
Reply #82 on: February 01, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
The latest I can think of is Space Empires 4x (2011). I agree, I wish it weren't the case but fantasy and sci-fi wargames seem to be going the way of the shag carpeting.

"My life is spent in one long effort to escape from the commonplace of existence."
-Sherlock Holmes

My Own Worst Enemy


pixelgeek

  • Jr. Trooper
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Reply #83 on: February 01, 2022, 09:11:32 AM
The latest I can think of is Space Empires 4x (2011). I agree, I wish it weren't the case but fantasy and sci-fi wargames seem to be going the way of the shag carpeting.

I think that the simplest reason for this is that people interested in consims aren't necessarily as interested in fantasy and sci-fi.I think that the publishers (past and present) know the market and if there was one for these type of games we'd see them.

Twilight Imperium is an interesting example as it is quite complex (nothing like the Next War series) but it is, I think, primarily a social game.



mcguire

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 938
  • Shoes for industry!
Reply #84 on: February 01, 2022, 04:10:25 PM
The latest I can think of is Space Empires 4x (2011). I agree, I wish it weren't the case but fantasy and sci-fi wargames seem to be going the way of the shag carpeting.

I think that the simplest reason for this is that people interested in consims aren't necessarily as interested in fantasy and sci-fi.I think that the publishers (past and present) know the market and if there was one for these type of games we'd see them.

Twilight Imperium is an interesting example as it is quite complex (nothing like the Next War series) but it is, I think, primarily a social game.

Wargaming's relationship with science fiction and fantasy has always been kind of iffy. More than a few wargamers exclude SF&F from "wargames" explicitly, others look at mechanisms and such and exclude not only a lot of historical games but also (and in fact rather preferentially) SF&F because they tend to be different and weird. And, of course, they're not serious. You'll never find them played in the Pentagon. (Which is kind of weird, since most of the professional games I've seen are also not wargames. I'm not clear on how that works.) It's not  surprising that designers and publishers have gotten rather leery of them.

(Anyone remember in the '80s when SF&F were a staple of magazine games and small ziplock-bag games? Sure, a big part of that was the lower research requirements. :) But then a fair number won various wargamey awards, possibly because of their difference and weirdness, even though they really weren't wargames. (It's ok, I've been told I'm not a wargamer several times for several reasons, so I can say that.) And, of course, they introduced a lot of people to something that sort of looks enough like the hobby that they went on to become real wargamers.)

[Note: before you go further, make sure you've taken your blood pressure medication and have a nice cup of chamomile tea. In fact, I'd recommend nobody read further at all.]

Root. Roooot. R't. Root?

Quote
Rather it was [Twilight Struggle's] approach to conflict simulation that was radically different from what had come before.  I, in my narrow world view, do not regard it as a wargame.  The world clearly does and it ushered in a new vision of possibilities for the form — not all of which I care for.  In a few years’ time, I could see see Undaunted in this slot.  Today, however, it belongs to TS.

Or perhaps Memoir '44?   :biggrin:

Anyway, there is that big, invisible, grimdark elephant in the room. You know the one; it's fantasy and/or science fiction. Probably both. It at least looks an awful lot like a wargameishy thing. It's been in existence since the 1980s. And the revenue on its income statement has an awful lot of digits to the left of the decimal point. And it will show up on exactly 0 of these sorts of lists.

"Man...knowing how to use the cards properly certainly changes how I play the game" -- judgedredd


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator, Pilkunnussija
  • Administrator
  • Lead Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 12478
  • Onward and upward
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #85 on: February 09, 2022, 10:40:13 AM
Cyrano crashes EYWTKAWBWATA


and it's a RIOT


Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.


Martok

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Lance Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 5695
  • Tilting at windmills
Reply #86 on: February 09, 2022, 03:20:59 PM
Okay, I might have circle back and actually watch the whole thing.  The first five minutes alone had me cackling.  ;D 


"I like big maps and I cannot lie." - Barthheart

"I drastically overpaid for this existence." - bbmike


mcguire

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 938
  • Shoes for industry!
Reply #87 on: February 09, 2022, 03:28:09 PM
I caught the end last night.  :2funny:

"Man...knowing how to use the cards properly certainly changes how I play the game" -- judgedredd


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator, Pilkunnussija
  • Administrator
  • Lead Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 12478
  • Onward and upward
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #88 on: February 09, 2022, 03:31:14 PM
Okay, I might have circle back and actually watch the whole thing.  The first five minutes alone had me cackling.  ;D

totally worth it.

put it on 1.25 or 1.5x speed and you can still keep up with it

Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.