Armchair Dragoons Forums

Wargaming => The Modern World => Topic started by: judgedredd on September 27, 2019, 06:06:29 AM

Title: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 27, 2019, 06:06:29 AM
After spending some time reading the rules (struggling), watching a couple of videos, I decided I was ready to set this baby up and play through the expanded play example in the manual and go from there.

Unfortunately, I'd forgotten that the map - in it's entirety - is too big. I remembered when I bought it that I'd have to look into either "folding" part of the map over or moving it over the larger part of the map when I wasn't playing - but that's just not going to be practical.

The problem is I have 1 place I can play boardgames - the dining table in the conservatory. We have cats that live in the conservatory so I bought a foldable "cover" for my games when I had them out. The two pieces of map for this game are too big for that foldable cover.

Ardennes '44 is even worse!

My other daughter is at uni and so I could play it on a board in her room - but she's likely to be back on occasion.

Looks like this and Ardennes might have to wait until my kids actually leave home.

Still - it allows me to either get back to Combat Commander:Europe, Mrs Thatchers War or my new Silver Bayonet game.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2019, 06:13:51 AM
I feel your pain with regards to table space. I have a spare desk next to my computer desk and basically will take a single map 'plus a bit', and thus Holland '44 just about fits.

Like you we have a cat who is very found of kicking dice and counters around.

However, and I know that not everyone likes Vassal, but the Holland '44 module is very good and I have used it a lot to get familiar with the rules, so you may want to give it a try, JD.

Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on September 27, 2019, 12:00:50 PM
Jago is displeased with you daring to use his bed space.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2019, 01:10:03 PM
Jago is displeased with you daring to use his her bed space.

Nowhere is sacred - everywhere is a potential sleeping place.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on September 27, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Well I got the name right, at least.  ;D
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 27, 2019, 03:12:47 PM
Well, I've set up in my daughters room at the moment because she's at university.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48804337748_4dd12a04cb_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 27, 2019, 03:21:34 PM
Now teach me how to play!
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on September 27, 2019, 03:24:25 PM
Let’s set up a VASSAL game and get this thing going.  I think a 4 player variant is possible.  One controls airborne, one controls armoured drive, one controls SS, and one non-SS.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2019, 03:25:59 PM
I'll dig the rules out and help out if I can
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 27, 2019, 03:41:43 PM
Heck of a Time Zone spread there!
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2019, 03:43:01 PM
Yeah - JD must be all of 300 miles away from me - maybe more :-)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 27, 2019, 04:25:14 PM
I mean SDR on the West Coast of NA
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 27, 2019, 04:53:46 PM
...
However, and I know that not everyone likes Vassal, but the Holland '44 module is very good and I have used it a lot to get familiar with the rules, so you may want to give it a try, JD.

Will do. It was quite nice seeing all the units in their starting positions when I loaded the module.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48805487897_234b687f85_o.jpg)

Finally set up. It took me 2 hours.

I did not "bag" these counters correctly so it was a bit of a bugger trying to find all the correct units and starting locations/reinforcement turns. It is marked on most of the counters, but it's still quite a task (if you've put ALL the German units in one bag and 30 Corps in another - I did split out the Airborne units).

I will use more baggies I think for the reinforcements.

Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2019, 05:14:34 PM
Whilst I have mine in a GMT tray, I found that best way to sort them was by start-up and then by game turn of arrival.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 27, 2019, 05:42:21 PM
Whilst I have mine in a GMT tray, I found that best way to sort them was by start-up and then by game turn of arrival.
Yep - I came to the same conclusion once I had set the game up.

Surely you're using more than 1 tray? I have some trays, but looking at the number of counters, I knew I'd need to use more than one.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on September 27, 2019, 05:46:51 PM
I mean SDR on the West Coast of NA

PBEM.  It can be a bit slow bit it's doable.  Barth and I have done it a fair number of times with other titles.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 27, 2019, 05:50:07 PM
No - I have them comfortably in one tray.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 28, 2019, 04:11:27 AM
The quality of this game is superb...but...I do wish there was some chits to mark units as actioned. I understand I can play it "methodically"...top to bottom, left to right etc. But some counters would've been a nice touch.

I mean SDR on the West Coast of NA

PBEM.  It can be a bit slow bit it's doable.  Barth and I have done it a fair number of times with other titles.
The problem I foresee with PBEM (initially) is learning the game. Nothing helps like having someone to discuss the game when you are taking your turn. Having said that, I can imagine, looking at the counters and the need to think about the rules whilst playing with someone else that it could be a very looooong game for the "teacher".
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 28, 2019, 06:43:26 AM
My thought was to get it up on Vassal, with 2 of you playing a side, and a third person acting as, for want of a better description, a GM. If we did this also using Steam Chat, then it would be easier to discuss the game step-by-step. I'd quite happily volunteer to do this, although I realise that we'd need to pick a time that suits us all.

I would say that the BPEM option is all well and good for people who already are familiar with the game system / rules.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 28, 2019, 07:27:25 AM
I'm down with that. Tuna, I'm GMT, what time zone are you?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 28, 2019, 08:10:57 AM
I'm down with that. Tuna, I'm GMT, what time zone are you?


He's east coast US, like a whole lot of us :)


That's GMT-5 right now.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 28, 2019, 08:30:24 AM
Jeez, I was sleeping, what are you guys yakking about?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 28, 2019, 08:51:38 AM
Jeez, I was sleeping, what are you guys yakking about?


how bad you snore
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 28, 2019, 08:55:08 AM
 :D
Jeez, I was sleeping, what are you guys yakking about?


how bad you snore

But my wife says I'm not "that bad"
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Staggerwing on September 28, 2019, 09:47:10 AM
A wife who can fib like that convincingly is a keeper.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 28, 2019, 11:08:36 AM
Bob, what if you did a 'basics' session with Judge and I. .then later we can attempt Vassal with SDR..

Combat Resolver Tool I found on BGG

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/164136/combat-resolver-software-holland-44 (https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/164136/combat-resolver-software-holland-44)

Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 28, 2019, 11:39:10 AM
Yep, we could try that - I'll need to go through the rules again myself as its been a while since I played it.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on September 28, 2019, 01:35:06 PM
Bob, what if you did a 'basics' session with Judge and I. .then later we can attempt Vassal with SDR..
...

Hey! What about me?!?  :(
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 28, 2019, 01:46:25 PM
You can join in as well; I don't see a problem with that.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on September 28, 2019, 02:07:48 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 28, 2019, 02:15:04 PM
Will he want to though? From what I saw of the Vassal mode, the counters have been clipped!!  :sick:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 28, 2019, 02:29:51 PM
...you can be all the bridges and we'll keep blowing you up!.............
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on September 28, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
That's a great video, makes me want to get my copy out and finally learn it. Especially as it'll be a similar system to Stalingrad '42.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 28, 2019, 04:19:13 PM
What video? 😁
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on September 28, 2019, 05:34:02 PM
What video? 😁

Ok, don't make me think I'm some kind of dottering old feeb

Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 28, 2019, 05:41:29 PM
It would probably good fun to get a group chat going with Vassal running as well - I'm sure we could all learn a lot by doing it that way.

Not sure what the max number of people you can have on Steam chat at the same time.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 28, 2019, 05:43:54 PM
Discord works really well, and it's free
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bayonetbrant on September 28, 2019, 06:12:03 PM
Discord works really well, and it's free


We have an ACD Discord Server


PM me for the link
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on September 28, 2019, 07:20:48 PM
It would probably good fun to get a group chat going with Vassal running as well - I'm sure we could all learn a lot by doing it that way.

Not sure what the max number of people you can have on Steam chat at the same time.

You can have lots going on Steam chat... that’s what we use for Saturday Night Fights.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 29, 2019, 05:45:07 AM
Rule clarification please...

For blowing bridges,

Bridge Demolition During the Allied Players Turn
During this phase the rule states that the Germans can blow the bridge when an Allied player moves adjacent to the bridge OR attempts to move/attack across it. There doesn't seem to be any need for a German unit to be anywhere near the bridge...it's certainly not stated in the rules. Is this actually the case?

Bridge Demolition in the German Bridge Phase...
If the Germans want to attempt to blow a bridge in this phase, the hex has to have a German and an Allied player within 1 hex and the German player is either next to the bridge or has an unobstructed line to the bridge...that all makes sense. An allied player approaches the bridge and when it gets within one hex, the German player can choose to blow it as long as they are adjacent or within one hex and no Allied units are between him and the bridge.


I kind of have an issue with the Bridge Demolition During the Allied Player Turn rule - it seems to me that a German unit would have to be close to the bridge (as per the German Bridge Blowing phase) in order to blow it.

Anyone agree or can I have a valid reason why a bridge would blow with no German units in the vicinity?

Thanks
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 29, 2019, 09:12:15 AM
Couple things- first is I recommend taking a look at the living rules and errata from the Holland '44 page. It's fairly common for GMT's rules to change and be refined over time. Is it a PITA when you're trying to use the original printed rules? It definitely is and has caused more than a little strife when I've played with my buddies and we've been reading different versions of the rules  :D


https://www.gmtgames.com/p-600-holland-44-operation-market-garden.aspx (https://www.gmtgames.com/p-600-holland-44-operation-market-garden.aspx)

Second, even in the living rules it looks like the rule for bridge blowing during the Allied Phase is by design:

Quote
5.4 Bridge Demolition during the Allied Player-Turn

The moment an Allied unit either moves or Advances After Combat
adjacent to a bridge hexside, or attempts to move, attack, or Advance
After Combat across a bridge that is Wired for Demolition, the German
player may attempt to blow the bridge (he is not required to do so). If
the German player fails or declines to blow the bridge when an Allied
unit crosses the bridge, or attacks across the bridge, or moves/advances
adjacent to the bridge when the opposite side is already Allied controlled,
an Intact marker is placed.


Quote
5.5 Bridge Demolition in the German Bridge Phase

The German player may attempt to blow a bridge during his player-turn
if both a German and Allied unit are within one hex of the bridge, and
the German unit is in Good Order and either adjacent to the bridge or
its path to the bridge is not traced through enemy units, or across an
enemy ZOC Bond (see example on the next page). The bridge must
be Wired for Demolition. If the


My guess is that blowing the bridge during the Allied Phase represents a last-ditch effort by German rearguards to blow the bridge when the Allies are closing in. If the Germans fail the demo roll, the bridge is now "intact" and can't be blown until it is rewired for demolition (5.3.2 in the rules).
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Staggerwing on September 29, 2019, 09:37:39 AM
My guess is that blowing the bridge during the Allied Phase represents a last-ditch effort by German rearguards to blow the bridge when the Allies are closing in. If the Germans fail the demo roll, the bridge is now "intact" and can't be blown until it is rewired for demolition (5.3.2 in the rules).

Maybe there should be a special modifier that adjusts for whether it's the German turn or the Allied one when the demo attempt is made.

I'd think that when the German player is moving/acting his chances would be better, as opposed to the Allied turn when the Allies are actually pushing unto or even slightly onto (advancing scouts maybe) the bridge and the last individual German sappers can no longer get to the wiring and demo charges (unlike where there is still a full German unit next to the bridge). While the germans control one side of the bridge area they may be able to rewire if the first attempt is a dud. Not so when the sappers no longer have suppressing cover fire from their side. IIRC, This very thing actually occurred during the battle.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 29, 2019, 09:46:01 AM
I'm always reluctant to start house ruling things like that because it usually unbalances the game, often in unexpected ways. Those bridges were wired and ready to be blown by the handful of soldiers guarding them. Doing it during the Allied move phase is likely the only chance the German player will ever get to blow them. Once they go to intact, the German player isn't likely to get a second chance unless the Allied player really screws up.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 29, 2019, 09:59:06 AM
Rule clarification please...

For blowing bridges,

Bridge Demolition During the Allied Players Turn
During this phase the rule states that the Germans can blow the bridge when an Allied player moves adjacent to the bridge OR attempts to move/attack across it. There doesn't seem to be any need for a German unit to be anywhere near the bridge...it's certainly not stated in the rules. Is this actually the case?

Bridge Demolition in the German Bridge Phase...
If the Germans want to attempt to blow a bridge in this phase, the hex has to have a German and an Allied player within 1 hex and the German player is either next to the bridge or has an unobstructed line to the bridge...that all makes sense. An allied player approaches the bridge and when it gets within one hex, the German player can choose to blow it as long as they are adjacent or within one hex and no Allied units are between him and the bridge.


I kind of have an issue with the Bridge Demolition During the Allied Player Turn rule - it seems to me that a German unit would have to be close to the bridge (as per the German Bridge Blowing phase) in order to blow it.

Anyone agree or can I have a valid reason why a bridge would blow with no German units in the vicinity?

Thanks

Reading this one made me go "huh" too. But I think Mirth's response explains it and it is how I sort of thought they would explain it.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 29, 2019, 10:11:29 AM
Reading this one made me go "huh" too. But I think Mirth's response explains it and it is how I sort of thought they would explain it.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wargaming. Arguing over little things like this is the very air we breathe.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 29, 2019, 10:28:51 AM
Reading this one made me go "huh" too. But I think Mirth's response explains it and it is how I sort of thought they would explain it.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wargaming. Arguing over little things like this is the very air we breathe.

LOL, but it really was a "Huh" moment for me reading the rules! I thought, "Is this a mistake/typo"?

I am still guilty of not opening yet. I was thinking yesterday of getting an acrylic sheet to cover the map yesterday. My smaller folding table is big enough for Holland, but then I was thinking what if I got Ardennes? I'd need to go with a bigger table/sheet.. Too many decisions!!!

Do I need tweezers!!!?  I'm sure my 'modeling' Tweezer don't spread far enough!.. Does my wife have something that will 'clip' my counters the way that Barth would approve in her scrap-booking tools?

So many questions!!!

Oh, and what are people's thoughts on that Panzer or MBT game, is it a good one?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: trailrunner on September 29, 2019, 10:32:48 AM
Reading this one made me go "huh" too. But I think Mirth's response explains it and it is how I sort of thought they would explain it.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wargaming. Arguing over little things like this is the very air we breathe.

Next up: IFT vs IIFT in ASL.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 29, 2019, 10:41:20 AM
Do I need tweezers!!!?
Yes. Try to find ones with rounded or coated ends so you don't scratch the counters.

Quote
Oh, and what are people's thoughts on that Panzer or MBT game, is it a good one?

It's a very good family of games, but the rules are fairly detailed. You may not want to move into them as a next step.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 29, 2019, 11:17:16 AM
I picked up these from Amazon


(https://i.imgur.com/WPS7vdv.jpg)


Came with a light between the arms. Couldn't get the light to work. Company sent a replacement set and the light didn't work on that one either. So now I have two sets of pretty nice tweezers for the price of one.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Staggerwing on September 29, 2019, 11:21:36 AM
^ Those are like the ones we used to use at work to fish contact lenses out of the little glass vials in the days before blister packs.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 29, 2019, 01:07:56 PM
In the video I linked to earlier, the guy was using tweezers (or another video I watched) and he was having a mate with them.

The hexes in the game are big enough and the counters are small enough to make it fine to work with... Even with my big sausage fingers

And Mirth,. I accept your suggestion fine.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on September 29, 2019, 01:51:05 PM
I have those same tweezers, mirth. The light never was an issue for me so yeah sounds like you got a bum version.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on September 29, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
Never used tweezers for years upon years. Then I got a pair for some game or other because there were lots of counters.
Still don't use tweezers. Not coordinated enough to pick up counters and not have them twist in the tweezers, go flying, and knock more pieces on the board flying than if I had just used my fingers.  :P
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 29, 2019, 02:38:55 PM
Why am I not surprised that the engineer can't use tweezers?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 29, 2019, 02:48:57 PM
Try chopsticks maybe?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Staggerwing on September 29, 2019, 02:57:07 PM
Never used tweezers for years upon years. Then I got a pair for some game or other because there were lots of counters.
Still don't use tweezers. Not coordinated enough to pick up counters and not have them twist in the tweezers, go flying, and knock more pieces on the board flying than if I had just used my fingers.  :P

Slip a short piece of very soft silicone or neoprene tubing over the end of each tip, if the tweezers don't already have that. it'll give you extra anti-slip so the counters don't twist around. Leave the ends just a tiny bit past the ends of the tweezers tips.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 29, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
 :bigthumb: Thanks Stagger - good tip!.........um...no pun intended.............
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 29, 2019, 05:12:44 PM
Another rule check please....

Under Combat Modifiers and section 10.2.3 Attachments it says
(10.2.3) Attachments: Any one unit from a different Formation may
be attached to the Lead Formation and participate in the attack at full
strength. To be attached the unit must be STACKED with a unit from
the Lead Formation (exception: 10.2.4).


The example shown is this
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48816882051_6e9e04601e_o.jpg)

The example then goes on to say
EXAMPLE: The Guards Armoured Division is the Lead Formation
with a battalion of the 101st (hex B) as the one allowed attachment.
The other two 101st units attack at half strength. The odds are 29 to 10
with a shift for Armor = 3-1.


Now as far as I can tell, where the example says the odds are 29-10, it's actually taking full attack values for ALL attacking units.

The attacking units are A, B and C. The Guards unit is the  lead formation and so contributes 8 (2x4) to the attack. Then one attachment from another formation can provide it's full attack which is either B or C.

If it's B, then I see the attack odds as (A-4) + (B-5+4)+(C-4+4) = 21
If it's C then I see the attack odds as  (A-4) + (B-3+4)+(C-8+4) = 23

The only way I get 29 is by keeping ALL units with their full attack strength (A-8)+(B-5+4)+(C-8+4) = 29

Is this an error in the calculation or have I got not got to grips with the Lead Formations, Attachments and attack odds?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 29, 2019, 05:18:58 PM
The 3 units from Guards = 21, plus 1 unit from 101st adds four to make it 25. The other 2 units from 101st will be counted at half strength, adding another 2 each for a total of 29.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 29, 2019, 06:20:51 PM
So 'one' unit outside the formation counts as full and all others halved?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on September 30, 2019, 12:17:15 AM
Mounted maps are on sale.

$17.99

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977 (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 30, 2019, 01:36:08 AM
The 3 units from Guards = 21, plus 1 unit from 101st adds for to make it 25. The other 2 units from 101st will be counted at half strength, adding another 2 each for a total of 29.

Right. Sorry - for some reason I counted the Guards units as the green counters...odd because I know 30 Corps are brown counters and also it's the Guards Armoured Div...and the only units with Armour are the brown counters. Not to mention the green counters have para icons AND the Screaming Eagle of the 101st!

I don't know how I got that wrong - identification I mean - it's going to be a long war.

So 'one' unit outside the formation counts as full and all others halved?
Yep
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 30, 2019, 04:19:17 AM
Mounted maps are on sale.

$17.99

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977 (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977)
Ordered  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on September 30, 2019, 06:02:16 AM
The 3 units from Guards = 21, plus 1 unit from 101st adds for to make it 25. The other 2 units from 101st will be counted at half strength, adding another 2 each for a total of 29.

Right. Sorry - for some reason I counted the Guards units as the green counters...odd because I know 30 Corps are brown counters and also it's the Guards Armoured Div...and the only units with Armour are the brown counters. Not to mention the green counters have para icons AND the Screaming Eagle of the 101st!

I don't know how I got that wrong - identification I mean - it's going to be a long war.

So 'one' unit outside the formation counts as full and all others halved?
Yep

Ouch! The Guards Armoured Division badge (The Eye of Horus) is also quite distinctive, as are the ones for the Abn Div's.

Report to the the Co Sgt Maj for Division badge recognition training!  ;)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on September 30, 2019, 07:23:52 AM
I honestly do not know what I was thinking. TBH, I was looking for my magnifying glass, because I couldn't see the images properly - I actually thought the icon on the Guards units was the 82nd Airborne...but that's not the whole case because of what I said - tanks = guards and not airborne - I could make out the Screaming Eagle - I could see the para unit icon on the green counters.

I just got mixed up with my units when I was looking is all.

But I shall report.

HOWEVER - there is no arrow from the counter in D so I wasn't even counting that as it's not clear it's taking part (remember earlier in the rules there's no need for a unit to attack when it's next to an enemy unit)...so just saying  :-[
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 30, 2019, 05:39:44 PM
Mounted maps are on sale.

$17.99

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977 (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977)
Ordered  :bigthumb:

Ordered as well!  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Staggerwing on September 30, 2019, 07:12:00 PM


Mounted maps are on sale.

$17.99

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977 (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/282977)

The rest of you guys are slacking off- they still have 5 whole sets in stock!
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on September 30, 2019, 07:13:17 PM
I'd grab it but I need to get my regular copy to the table first. :(
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on September 30, 2019, 07:35:16 PM
I figured it would've cost 30 bucks to get a clear acrylic sheet, to cover the paper map. So in the end I saved money (or I can tell the wife that).
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 30, 2019, 07:44:48 PM
you guys peer pressured me into a mounted map
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on September 30, 2019, 07:45:29 PM
You’ll need to order the inevitable 3” box when it’s released because the mounted map takes up all the space in the box when it’s folded up.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 30, 2019, 07:49:49 PM
You’ll need to order the inevitable 3” box when it’s released because the mounted map takes up all the space in the box when it’s folded up.

I know the drill. I have mounted maps for Empire of the Sun and at least one other game that I can't think of at the moment.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on September 30, 2019, 08:36:24 PM
You’ll need to order the inevitable 3” box when it’s released because the mounted map takes up all the space in the box when it’s folded up.

I know the drill. I have mounted maps for Empire of the Sun and at least one other game that I can't think of at the moment.

Unconditional Surrender
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on September 30, 2019, 08:45:51 PM
You’ll need to order the inevitable 3” box when it’s released because the mounted map takes up all the space in the box when it’s folded up.

I know the drill. I have mounted maps for Empire of the Sun and at least one other game that I can't think of at the moment.

Unconditional Surrender

I do believe you're correct. :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on October 01, 2019, 05:55:48 AM
Played the Airborne Landing Phase last night. Managed to keep most bridges intact - including Son

This was quite an interesting read by the way

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1908942/holland-44-opening-para-move
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 01, 2019, 06:04:33 AM
 :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 01, 2019, 08:58:53 AM
It is a good game.  :)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 01, 2019, 04:46:01 PM
One of the nice aspects of the XX series games is they are actually pretty counter light imo and every map is simply a gorgeous work of art.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 01, 2019, 04:52:17 PM
^Yes, both map and counters are well done - A few more counters with Stalingrad '42 though, I think.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 01, 2019, 04:54:34 PM
Ukraine 43 is not too bad counter wise but you are probably correct on Stalingrad, Bob. I haven't really followed its development too closely. I just know I'll buy a copy when it come out.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 01, 2019, 04:56:17 PM
Three counter sheets <rubs hands together in gleeful anticipation>
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 01, 2019, 04:57:24 PM
One of the nice aspects of the XX series games is they are actually pretty counter light

Oh, now you're hating on counters  :D 
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 01, 2019, 04:59:35 PM
Three counter sheets <rubs hands together in gleeful anticipation>

One sheet is probably mostly bookkeeping counters though.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 01, 2019, 05:01:35 PM
<elbows Mirth out of the way>

Aye, that's true - mind you, the 3rd printing of Ardennes '44 has 3 sheets as well, so that will likely be the same. the system does require the use of a fair number of markers of various types.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 01, 2019, 05:01:55 PM
One of the nice aspects of the XX series games is they are actually pretty counter light

Oh, now you're hating on counters  :D

#LOVECOUNTERS #MEEPLESARECOUNTERSTOO
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 01, 2019, 05:03:08 PM
<elbows Mirth out of the way>

Aye, that's true - mind you, the 3rd printing of Ardennes '44 has 3 sheets as well, so that will likely be the same. the system does require the use of a fair number of markers of various types.

Mirf is jus' jelly.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 01, 2019, 07:56:31 PM
#MEEPLESARECOUNTERSTOO

 :vomit:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 01, 2019, 07:58:29 PM
<elbows Mirth out of the way>

Aye, that's true - mind you, the 3rd printing of Ardennes '44 has 3 sheets as well, so that will likely be the same. the system does require the use of a fair number of markers of various types.

Mirf is jus' jelly.

I'm jelly I don't have Ardennes '44 yet.

(not really. I have more than enough Bulge games)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 02, 2019, 06:18:59 AM
To be honest, neither do I, although I have played it to some extent on Vassal.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 02, 2019, 09:29:18 AM
Thing is, I know I will buy A Time for Trumpets when that gets released  :idiot2:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 02, 2019, 10:35:03 AM
It does look interesting  ;)

Say what you like, there is a fascination with 'Bulge' games.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 02, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
Say what you like, there is a fascination with 'Bulge' games.

Americans are caught flat-footed. Terrain and weather was an equalizer. Germans have all their cool armor toys. Big battle that's not Eastern Front. What's not to love?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 02, 2019, 11:31:07 AM
It is undoubtedly interesting. Plus you get the holding of Bastogne and the northern shoulder, which is pretty gripping stuff.

Beevor's 'Ardennes 1944' is an excellent book.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: judgedredd on October 03, 2019, 11:31:30 AM
Look what turned up...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48835182993_8fa44d4517_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 03, 2019, 11:33:36 AM
 :bigthumb:

And you have room for it on your table!  ;D
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 03, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
Nice. Should have mine tomorrow.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 03, 2019, 11:39:10 AM
Very nice.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on October 03, 2019, 12:09:46 PM
Hmm, where's mine!
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 03, 2019, 02:57:41 PM
Have fun trying to dislodge the Germans from Arnhem.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 03, 2019, 03:12:26 PM
9th and 10th SS are tough units.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 03, 2019, 03:30:22 PM
Just don't let them interrupt tea time in the field. The SS can be right buggers about that sort of thing during a battle.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 03, 2019, 03:54:45 PM
I know to what you refer, however, there is a lot more to the incident than meets the eye - go read 'A magnificent Disaster' and talk to me again about it  ;)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 03, 2019, 04:20:26 PM
I know to what you refer, however, there is a lot more to the incident than meets the eye - go read 'A magnificent Disaster' and talk to me again about it  ;)

Added to my Amazon cart. Once I earn a bit more I'll go and buy it. Thanks for the recommendation!  :bigthumb:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 03, 2019, 04:30:40 PM
Its a seriously good book.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 03, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
One of my more favorite Conflict-Series games is the Operation Market-Garden one. It's near damned impossible to link up with the Brits. I'd say 90% of my games, no matter the difficulty level, result in them getting wiped out.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 04, 2019, 09:08:32 AM
 :D

https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44

Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 04, 2019, 09:22:38 AM
:D

https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44 (https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44)

BC is buying two
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 04, 2019, 09:23:24 AM
:D

https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44 (https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44)


that would cover the entire upper floor of JD's house
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 04, 2019, 09:47:22 AM
They do Normandy '44 in big format as well.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 04, 2019, 09:59:12 AM
Yeah, but I don't own that one... yet....  :P

But they have given me an idea. I can use the graphics from the VASSAL module to print out my own large scale map. And if I do it here at work it's free! OR I got to someplace like Vista Print and have them do it on vinyl.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bbmike on October 04, 2019, 10:01:02 AM
That would look great on a wall. You would just need a way to keep the counters from falling off.  :dreamer:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 04, 2019, 10:31:20 AM
Yeah, but I don't own that one... yet....  :P

But they have given me an idea. I can use the graphics from the VASSAL module to print out my own large scale map. And if I do it here at work it's free! OR I got to someplace like Vista Print and have them do it on vinyl.

Are there any copyright issue though?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 04, 2019, 10:48:41 AM
 :dunno:

Not if I don't sell it I'd guess.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 04, 2019, 10:56:27 AM
What sort of cost is involved to get stuff printed out like that? Also, what about the counters - not so much printing them as getting them cut.

Its all very interesting, though.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 04, 2019, 11:01:29 AM
:D

https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44 (https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44)

BC is buying two

Three.

So I can triple-blind play solo.  :D
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 04, 2019, 11:03:41 AM
:D

https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44 (https://bigboardgames.net/products/holland-44)

BC is buying two

Three.

So I can triple-blind play solo.  :D

Sounds about right :P
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bayonetbrant on October 04, 2019, 11:19:54 AM
That would look great on a wall. You would just need a way to keep the counters from falling off.  :dreamer:


Magnets (https://litko.net/search?type=product&q=magnet*+sheet*)


metal sheet under; magnets stuck to counters
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bbmike on October 04, 2019, 11:23:50 AM
That would look great on a wall. You would just need a way to keep the counters from falling off.  :dreamer:


Magnets (https://litko.net/search?type=product&q=magnet*+sheet*)


metal sheet under; magnets stuck to counters

Well, then. Please allow me to update:

That would look great on a wall. You would just need a way to keep the counters from falling off and be single.  :dreamer:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 04, 2019, 11:24:09 AM
That would look great on a wall. You would just need a way to keep the counters from falling off.  :dreamer:


Magnets (https://litko.net/search?type=product&q=magnet*+sheet*)


metal sheet under; magnets stuck to counters

Back in the day, I had a plan to do that with Advanced Third Reich
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 04, 2019, 11:25:26 AM
Magnets (https://litko.net/search?type=product&q=magnet*+sheet*)

NSFW, FYI

Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 04, 2019, 12:13:50 PM
What sort of cost is involved to get stuff printed out like that? Also, what about the counters - not so much printing them as getting them cut.

Its all very interesting, though.

Vistaprint Canada says ~$60 CAD for a 4'x6' vinyl banner.

For counters I'd make and cut my own. 2mm matte board, full sheet label ink jet printer paper, sharp rotary cutter and a steel rule.

So easily less than $100 CAD.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 04, 2019, 12:26:23 PM
I recently got a rotary cutter for doing the counters for PnP 'Horse & Musket'. They are much better than using a knife (after a bit of practice!).
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 04, 2019, 12:34:26 PM
Yep. Love mine. 45mm diameter. About time I replaced the blade though...
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bob48 on October 04, 2019, 01:25:44 PM
Aye' mine is 45mm. It wasn't expensive, (around £10 I think) and came with 3 spare blades.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Bison on October 04, 2019, 02:22:05 PM
Yep. Love mine. 45mm diameter. About time I replaced the blade though...

There are better and easier ways of clipping your counters properly.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on October 04, 2019, 02:50:49 PM
My lil board just arrived, I thought it came in a box too? I may have to open the original now!  :idiot2:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Barthheart on October 04, 2019, 03:07:36 PM
Yep. Love mine. 45mm diameter. About time I replaced the blade though...

There are better and easier ways of clipping your counters properly.

 :blahblah:
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 05, 2019, 05:43:42 PM
Thing of beauty


(https://i.imgur.com/VZRhi0q.jpg)
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: tuna on October 05, 2019, 05:58:20 PM
Yours didn't come till today? Take's a day longer to get up to Maine?
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 05, 2019, 06:00:51 PM
Yours didn't come till today? Take's a day longer to get up to Maine?

It arrived yesterday. I didn't get home until late last night. Was gaming out of town.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: bbmike on October 05, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
You have to remember, Maine is just north-east of the Twilight Zone.
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: Staggerwing on October 05, 2019, 06:51:15 PM
You have to remember, Maine is just down-east of the Twilight Zone.

FIFY
Title: Re: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space
Post by: mirth on October 05, 2019, 07:15:40 PM
Wing for the win