Author Topic: Holland '44 and the woes of board gaming space  (Read 5746 times)

judgedredd

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Reply #30 on: September 28, 2019, 02:15:04 PM
Will he want to though? From what I saw of the Vassal mode, the counters have been clipped!!  :sick:

Alba gu' brath


bob48

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Reply #31 on: September 28, 2019, 02:29:51 PM
...you can be all the bridges and we'll keep blowing you up!.............

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BanzaiCat

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Reply #32 on: September 28, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
That's a great video, makes me want to get my copy out and finally learn it. Especially as it'll be a similar system to Stalingrad '42.



judgedredd

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Reply #33 on: September 28, 2019, 04:19:13 PM
What video? 😁

Alba gu' brath


BanzaiCat

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Reply #34 on: September 28, 2019, 05:34:02 PM
What video? 😁

Ok, don't make me think I'm some kind of dottering old feeb




bob48

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Reply #35 on: September 28, 2019, 05:41:29 PM
It would probably good fun to get a group chat going with Vassal running as well - I'm sure we could all learn a lot by doing it that way.

Not sure what the max number of people you can have on Steam chat at the same time.

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tuna

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Reply #36 on: September 28, 2019, 05:43:54 PM
Discord works really well, and it's free



bayonetbrant

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Reply #37 on: September 28, 2019, 06:12:03 PM
Discord works really well, and it's free


We have an ACD Discord Server


PM me for the link

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Barthheart

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Reply #38 on: September 28, 2019, 07:20:48 PM
It would probably good fun to get a group chat going with Vassal running as well - I'm sure we could all learn a lot by doing it that way.

Not sure what the max number of people you can have on Steam chat at the same time.

You can have lots going on Steam chat... that’s what we use for Saturday Night Fights.

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judgedredd

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Reply #39 on: September 29, 2019, 05:45:07 AM
Rule clarification please...

For blowing bridges,

Bridge Demolition During the Allied Players Turn
During this phase the rule states that the Germans can blow the bridge when an Allied player moves adjacent to the bridge OR attempts to move/attack across it. There doesn't seem to be any need for a German unit to be anywhere near the bridge...it's certainly not stated in the rules. Is this actually the case?

Bridge Demolition in the German Bridge Phase...
If the Germans want to attempt to blow a bridge in this phase, the hex has to have a German and an Allied player within 1 hex and the German player is either next to the bridge or has an unobstructed line to the bridge...that all makes sense. An allied player approaches the bridge and when it gets within one hex, the German player can choose to blow it as long as they are adjacent or within one hex and no Allied units are between him and the bridge.


I kind of have an issue with the Bridge Demolition During the Allied Player Turn rule - it seems to me that a German unit would have to be close to the bridge (as per the German Bridge Blowing phase) in order to blow it.

Anyone agree or can I have a valid reason why a bridge would blow with no German units in the vicinity?

Thanks

Alba gu' brath


mirth

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Reply #40 on: September 29, 2019, 09:12:15 AM
Couple things- first is I recommend taking a look at the living rules and errata from the Holland '44 page. It's fairly common for GMT's rules to change and be refined over time. Is it a PITA when you're trying to use the original printed rules? It definitely is and has caused more than a little strife when I've played with my buddies and we've been reading different versions of the rules  :D


https://www.gmtgames.com/p-600-holland-44-operation-market-garden.aspx

Second, even in the living rules it looks like the rule for bridge blowing during the Allied Phase is by design:

Quote
5.4 Bridge Demolition during the Allied Player-Turn

The moment an Allied unit either moves or Advances After Combat
adjacent to a bridge hexside, or attempts to move, attack, or Advance
After Combat across a bridge that is Wired for Demolition, the German
player may attempt to blow the bridge (he is not required to do so). If
the German player fails or declines to blow the bridge when an Allied
unit crosses the bridge, or attacks across the bridge, or moves/advances
adjacent to the bridge when the opposite side is already Allied controlled,
an Intact marker is placed.


Quote
5.5 Bridge Demolition in the German Bridge Phase

The German player may attempt to blow a bridge during his player-turn
if both a German and Allied unit are within one hex of the bridge, and
the German unit is in Good Order and either adjacent to the bridge or
its path to the bridge is not traced through enemy units, or across an
enemy ZOC Bond (see example on the next page). The bridge must
be Wired for Demolition. If the


My guess is that blowing the bridge during the Allied Phase represents a last-ditch effort by German rearguards to blow the bridge when the Allies are closing in. If the Germans fail the demo roll, the bridge is now "intact" and can't be blown until it is rewired for demolition (5.3.2 in the rules).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 09:18:17 AM by mirth »

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Staggerwing

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Reply #41 on: September 29, 2019, 09:37:39 AM
My guess is that blowing the bridge during the Allied Phase represents a last-ditch effort by German rearguards to blow the bridge when the Allies are closing in. If the Germans fail the demo roll, the bridge is now "intact" and can't be blown until it is rewired for demolition (5.3.2 in the rules).

Maybe there should be a special modifier that adjusts for whether it's the German turn or the Allied one when the demo attempt is made.

I'd think that when the German player is moving/acting his chances would be better, as opposed to the Allied turn when the Allies are actually pushing unto or even slightly onto (advancing scouts maybe) the bridge and the last individual German sappers can no longer get to the wiring and demo charges (unlike where there is still a full German unit next to the bridge). While the germans control one side of the bridge area they may be able to rewire if the first attempt is a dud. Not so when the sappers no longer have suppressing cover fire from their side. IIRC, This very thing actually occurred during the battle.

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mirth

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Reply #42 on: September 29, 2019, 09:46:01 AM
I'm always reluctant to start house ruling things like that because it usually unbalances the game, often in unexpected ways. Those bridges were wired and ready to be blown by the handful of soldiers guarding them. Doing it during the Allied move phase is likely the only chance the German player will ever get to blow them. Once they go to intact, the German player isn't likely to get a second chance unless the Allied player really screws up.

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tuna

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Reply #43 on: September 29, 2019, 09:59:06 AM
Rule clarification please...

For blowing bridges,

Bridge Demolition During the Allied Players Turn
During this phase the rule states that the Germans can blow the bridge when an Allied player moves adjacent to the bridge OR attempts to move/attack across it. There doesn't seem to be any need for a German unit to be anywhere near the bridge...it's certainly not stated in the rules. Is this actually the case?

Bridge Demolition in the German Bridge Phase...
If the Germans want to attempt to blow a bridge in this phase, the hex has to have a German and an Allied player within 1 hex and the German player is either next to the bridge or has an unobstructed line to the bridge...that all makes sense. An allied player approaches the bridge and when it gets within one hex, the German player can choose to blow it as long as they are adjacent or within one hex and no Allied units are between him and the bridge.


I kind of have an issue with the Bridge Demolition During the Allied Player Turn rule - it seems to me that a German unit would have to be close to the bridge (as per the German Bridge Blowing phase) in order to blow it.

Anyone agree or can I have a valid reason why a bridge would blow with no German units in the vicinity?

Thanks

Reading this one made me go "huh" too. But I think Mirth's response explains it and it is how I sort of thought they would explain it.



mirth

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Reply #44 on: September 29, 2019, 10:11:29 AM
Reading this one made me go "huh" too. But I think Mirth's response explains it and it is how I sort of thought they would explain it.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wargaming. Arguing over little things like this is the very air we breathe.

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