Author Topic: The PODCAST now known as "Mentioned in Dispatches" !  (Read 29575 times)

mirth

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Reply #180 on: August 23, 2019, 10:00:29 AM
In my experience, the percentage of idiots is higher than 1%. And let's be honest, a lot of people in the hobby don't have the greatest social skills. The vast majority of us are decent people, but the knuckleheads really stand out. The defense against misperceptions of us as a group is to call out and denounce the a-holes.

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Reply #181 on: August 23, 2019, 10:01:22 AM
In my experience, the percentage of idiots is higher than 1%. And let's be honest, a lot of people in the hobby don't have the greatest social skills. The vast majority of us are decent people, but the knuckleheads really stand out. The defense against misperceptions of us as a group is to call out and denounce the a-holes.

You're correct of course on the 1%. As well as calling out reprehensible behavior when it happens.



Peter Mogensen

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Reply #182 on: August 23, 2019, 10:07:15 AM
but come on ... some times you just want to play a strategically challenging game and not be expected to have moral considerations about whether the game art and components are sufficiently condemning of historical people deserving condemnation.

The hobby has become more mainstream in the past 10-15 years. Those considerations are going to become an increasing part of the discussion.

Sure... And there are games which genuinely would deserve a raised eyebrow and ridicule of the designer.
Just look at some of these:
 


But as with everything it's best in moderation and if it's overdone and start to look like inventing problems for virtue signaling or as "to enforce their lines on other people" ... it becomes counter productive.

And (back to my point) ... the polarized nature of US society and politics seems to tend to make people push these limits. I can of course understand that when one side of the US political spectrum acts completely without moral compass it will also create a counter-reaction on the other side ... but when these opinions are then exported to places where we don't have such a polarized discourse it just looks like everyone has gone mad.
To give a non-board-game example. The US right has some very arcane and dogmatic ideas about abortion. (especially showing these days) ... but it seems to also foster a counter-reaction in some circles which even in Nordic countries with very liberal abortion laws seems extremist.

Now... I'm afraid we're already approaching territory  where it becomes impossible to elaborate without being political... which is (as you noted) also is a problem.

 



Peter Mogensen

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Reply #183 on: August 23, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
The defense against misperceptions of us as a group is to call out and denounce the a-holes.

Well ... having been called names like that myself on incredibly silly foundations (IMHO), I'm not sure I trust all of the 99% to judge when someone is an a-hole.
It might just happen that the percentage of people not capable of judging that is also higher than 1%



mirth

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Reply #184 on: August 23, 2019, 10:14:39 AM
The defense against misperceptions of us as a group is to call out and denounce the a-holes.

Well ... having been called names like that myself on incredibly silly foundations (IMHO), I'm not sure I trust all of the 99% to judge when someone is an a-hole.
It might just happen that the percentage of people not capable of judging that is also higher than 1%

I'm quite comfortable saying that these guys are a-holes.
Quote
I just listened to an older Dice Tower podcast on the way in to work this morning, in which they read a missive from a listener that said he'd been with his gaming group at a restaurant. They were playing Secret Hitler and he said he chose to not participate as he wasn't feeling it that particular day - that's absolutely fine, of course. What's not is, the guy said his friends started saying "HEIL HITLER" and throwing up a Nazi salute - right there in the restaurant.

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Peter Mogensen

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Reply #185 on: August 23, 2019, 10:21:40 AM
I'm quite comfortable saying that these guys are a-holes.

Sure... or at least idiots.

But that doesn't really solve the issue.
Even if you might be able to find the line between who are a-holes and who just have a different opinion than you which doesn't qualify them as being "the enemy" ... not everybody are.



mirth

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Reply #186 on: August 23, 2019, 10:27:57 AM
I'm quite comfortable saying that these guys are a-holes.

Sure... or at least idiots.

But that doesn't really solve the issue.
Even if you might be able to find the line between who are a-holes and who just have a different opinion than you which doesn't qualify them as being "the enemy" ... not everybody are.

My point is that people in the hobby gripe about how the hobby is misperceived by the mainstream. One way to correct the misperceptions is to not tolerate racists, misogynists, and general assholes in the hobby.

A bunch of guys throwing up the Nazis salute and shouting "Heil Hitler!" while gaming in a restaurant is not a good look for the rest of us.

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Reply #187 on: August 23, 2019, 10:28:59 AM
Peter - I think one thing you'll find around these parts is a relatively low asshole count.  We've tried pretty hard to set a more congenial tone in this group, and we have a pretty tough "no politics" rule that we hold pretty seriously, in the interest of keeping things civil.

There are certainly places where trolls get away with tossing bombs just for the sake of tossing them, but we tend to self-moderate a lot of that behavior.

I think the tone of the community certainly matters, and whatever you let people get away with, there's always someone trying to push that boundary an extra 5% just to push it.  Eventually, someone pushes back.

We try to keep things from pushing too much here, and keep focused more on the games (and let's face it, we talk a lot of music & movies, too) and try to keep the noise somewhere else.  No one is saying you can't have an opinion, but like I said on the podcast, you should try to respect the rules of the house owner whose living room you're hanging out in, and keep your feet off the furniture, if that's the prevailing standard.

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Peter Mogensen

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Reply #188 on: August 23, 2019, 10:34:30 AM
My point is that people in the hobby gripe about how the hobby is misperceived by the mainstream. One way to correct the misperceptions is to not tolerate racists, misogynists, and general assholes in the hobby.

A bunch of guys throwing up the Nazis salute and shouting "Heil Hitler!" while gaming in a restaurant is not a good look for the rest of us.

I think this is an example of group-think.
Those idiots doesn't affect me in any way and I feel no obligation to police other peoples actions because someone might notice that they play a board game and I also play (most likely) some very different board games.
Sure... I can say these people sounds like idiots, but I feel no urge at all to start a group effort to change or influence a lot of other people who just happen to have a hobby which resembles mine.

And I say "resembles". Though there's most often an overlap with other in games we like it is possible to find people with who you share absolutely no gaming interests. I don't regard people as a part of some "community" I'm also in just because they also have a BGG user ... and I feel no obligation for how stupid they might behave in restaurants.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 10:37:37 AM by Peter Mogensen »



Peter Mogensen

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Reply #189 on: August 23, 2019, 10:36:50 AM
No one is saying you can't have an opinion, but like I said on the podcast, you should try to respect the rules of the house owner whose living room you're hanging out in, and keep your feet off the furniture, if that's the prevailing standard.

You make me doubt whether you think I've already done that.




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Reply #190 on: August 23, 2019, 10:36:59 AM
I promised Brant I'd keep my powder dry on this, but...

1.  I am a doom-and-gloomer when it comes to historical wargaming, but I don't think it has anything to do with angry mobs of the ill-informed just.

2.  Throughout this conversation, my question has consistently been, "fine, agreed, so what?"  When responses come, my reactions have typically fallen into two categories:  "Sure.  Good.  That's it?" and "Oh, really, and who gets to decide that?  Surely not you or I?"

Oh, and let me repeat something I said on an earlier podcast:  bad facts make bad law and they also tend to frame bad arguments.  "Scramble for Africa" was never a hill on which anyone should want to fight much less die.  If anyone does the game on the life of Harry Flashman, it's gonna be me.  All players will be required to wear absurd hats.

This includes Jim Snyder.




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mirth

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Reply #191 on: August 23, 2019, 10:40:49 AM
I think this is an example of group-think.
Those idiots doesn't affect me in any way and I feel no obligation to police other peoples actions because someone might notice that they play a board game and I also play (most likely) some very different board games.
Sure... I can say the people sounds like idiot, but I feel no urge at all to start a group effort to change or influence a lot of other people who just happen to have a hobby which resembles mine.

And I say "resembles". Though there's most often an overlap with other in games we like it is possible to find people with who you share absolutely no gaming interests. I don't regard people as a part of some "community" I'm also in just because they also have a BGG user ... and I feel no obligation for how stupid they might behave in restaurants.

That's fine and I personally agree with your view point about it not affecting my involvement with or enjoyment of the hobby. However, none of us should be surprised when a mainstream news outlet, like the New York Times, publishes an article that calls into question the nature of the hobby. Not as long as we are willing to tolerate or turn a blind-eye to the idiots and assholes.

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mirth

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Reply #192 on: August 23, 2019, 10:44:00 AM
"Scramble for Africa" was never a hill on which anyone should want to fight much less die.

That's how I feel about it. People are going to fight over the politics, cry out "SJWs are ruining the hobby, etc because that's what people do, but SfA was a bad game idea that deserved to die because it was a bad game idea.

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Peter Mogensen

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Reply #193 on: August 23, 2019, 10:49:00 AM
However, none of us should be surprised when a mainstream news outlet, like the New York Times, publishes an article that calls into question the nature of the hobby. Not as long as we are willing to tolerate or turn a blind-eye to the idiots and assholes.

I hope we're talking about the same NYT article.
The one I read insinuated that there was a "whitewashing" of the German Army going on due to games having black SS counters.
Is that what we should not "turn a blind eye to" ? ... Do we seriously suspect designers of such games for being idiots and assholes engaged in whitewashing?

The article also tried to draw a lot of parallels to the video game scene and gamergate. I'm sure there were a lot of idiots and assholes involved in gamergate, but it just seems utterly absurd to assume the same is happening with board games. It certainly isn't the case where I live and (again) *if* that's the case in the board game scene in the US, it very clearly shows that we're not one big "community".



mirth

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Reply #194 on: August 23, 2019, 10:57:54 AM
... Do we seriously suspect designers of such games for being idiots and assholes engaged in whitewashing?

You continue to parse my words, so I will reiterate what I mean when I refer to the assholes in the hobby. I mean the guys who will throw Nazis salutes and shout "Heil Hitler!". I mean the guys who will walk around conventions wearing Das Reich ball caps and t-shirts as though they are supporting a baseball team. I could go on with a list of bullshit behavior which is not uncommon within the hobby.

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