Armchair Dragoons Forums

News:

  • Connections Online 2024 will be held 15-20 April, 2024 ~~ More Info here
  • Buckeye Game Fest will be held May 2-5, 2024, with The War Room opening on 29 April ~~ More Info here

News

Connections Online 2024 will be held 15-20 April, 2024 ~~ More Info here

Author Topic: Do you draw any (moral) lines when wargaming?  (Read 4456 times)

TTC

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 368
on: July 01, 2022, 03:55:19 PM
I play plenty of board wargames and have played plenty of computer wargames. I don't lose any sleep or wring my hands over playing the Nazis in a WWII game, the Romans in an ancients game, or just about anyone else. It's a game and I am only recreating/simulating the military (and maybe economic) aspects of these conflicts. I am not engaging in a Holocaust, perpetuating the slavery of blacks in the South, or conducting a Roman genocide and enslavement.

I have also happily nuked the US when playing computer games like DEFCON (I mean, Ally Sheedy wanted to nuke Vegas, right?) and been happy when an Allied invasion of Europe gets pushed back into the sea when playing as the Germans. I didn't think twice about playing a Distant Plain and removing Coalition cubes, even though I served in Afghanistan and lost a few friends there.

But a couple of games have given me some qualms:
Labyrinth. I have never played it. Admittedly, the CDG mechanic or subject matter doesn't excite me; but I am also very disturbed by one of the Jihadist victories: to nuke a US city. I couldn't celebrate a win that way. Maybe it's just too personal, or the terror of a real WMD plot in a US city is too real, as most of the US worldview for about 10 years after 9/11 was driven by a "never again" mantra and a real fear of a nuclear-armed terrorist.

Skies Above the Reich. I own this game and believe it's a great game. I have played the campaign and celebrated the destruction of US B-17s. But I do have qualms about it and don't know if I'll play it again. There is something about it that disturbs me celebrating the destruction of a B-17, and the likely death of at least some of the crew of 10. (My grandfather was in the Army in WWII; I had an uncle flying in the Pacific; so I don't have any family ties to the strategic bombing of Germany.)

Maybe the videos and images of B-17s falling out of the skies, or the famous one of the B-17 missing a wing, have made too much of an impression on me. And I was at the Pima Air Museum in Tucson last week, checking out the B-17 and admiring the tight quarters, imagining the sound of flak exploding outside while FWs attacked from every direction.

I guess that nearly every other wargame I have is much more abstract. You flip a counter when a US division loses a step--that does mean the death of any individual, but the aggregate effects of the loss of cohesion and material. In Wing Leader, the counters represent a flight of aircraft, not an individual aircraft. Still, it never bothered me trying to destroy Shermans in WWII tactical games, or sink US ships in other games.

My thoughts on this aren't exactly rational and I struggle to articulate them--here, or to myself.

Are there any games that you shy away from for similar reasons?



Silent Disapproval Robot

  • Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 934
Reply #1 on: July 01, 2022, 04:05:46 PM
I avoid playing with dudes who fetishize certain regimes or political movements.  If some edgy hipster dipshit sporting a hammer and sickle ball-hat or some Nazi-weeb wearing a Das Reich t-shirt  rolls up to a game I'm hosting (both of which have happened), I tell them to keep walking.  (I'm fine with someone wearing a StuG life shirt though....)






judgedredd

  • Guest
Reply #2 on: July 01, 2022, 04:31:22 PM
I haven't come across any situations that I recall that made me think that deep. I knew people who wouldn't play Silent Hunter IV because they could destroy a US ship.

I think possibly outside of "normal" warfare, I wouldn't be comfortable playing games - so that would include things like Jihadists or Taliban - anything terrorist related. I could play those types of games if I was fighting them...but not fighting as them. It's a dirty warfare.

I don't think I'd have a problem playing a nuclear war simulation either for some reason.

I would have a problem playing the Germans if the core aspect of the game was to rid their country of Jewish people.

So I think - in general - I'm ok playing "Queensbury rules" war...but if it came to something out the ordinary, it would likely be a no-no.

I hadn't really thought about it before - so good question.



Undercovergeek

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 2075
Reply #3 on: July 01, 2022, 04:40:33 PM
I normally play the baddies depending on your perspective  - only because they have the coolest kit - tigers, panthers, zeroes, kido butai, hinds and t 80s

Also because invariably the baddies lose and I want to see if I can do better

But there are times I watch something like Schindler’s list or world at war and think to myself what am I doing playing these in a game making light of it



trailrunner

  • Corporal
  • **
  • Posts: 1063
Reply #4 on: July 01, 2022, 04:56:37 PM
I'd have a little problem playing games depicting modern warfare with US forces based in Iraq or Afghanistan, or terrorism.  On the other hand, it fits in well with my career, and I've done plenty of professional simulations with US forces.  I grew up in the Vietnam era, but have never played a game set there.  Not sure how I'd feel about that.

In ASL world, there is a big debate about black SS counters.  Normally, German counters are blue, and there are blue SS units.  But at some point they made black SS counters, and some people thought that went too far.  I don't have an opinion.  I would not go out of my way to play with the black counters, but I probably wouldn't object if my opponent wanted to use them, as long as he didn't have a fetish for the SS or Nazism in general.  Among my ASL battle dice, I do have some SS dice and I have used them.  I don't have a fetish for the SS, but if the scenario has some SS forces, I'll use them.  But if my opponent objected, I'd have no problem not using them.

I’ve spent half my life’s earning on wargames, women, and drink. The rest I wasted.


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator & Event "Organizer"
  • Administrator
  • Staff Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 15380
  • Going mad, but at least going somewhere
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #5 on: July 01, 2022, 04:56:40 PM
TTC, I don't know of any games I would avoid for the reasons you listed, although I certainly understand you're reasoning.

I think there's definitely some twat-waffles I would avoid, not unlike SDR, above, regardless of the game I'm playing.  There's a couple of designers I prefer to avoid, for similar reasons, too.

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++

Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Six Degrees of Radio for songs you should know by artists you should love


Undercovergeek

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 2075
Reply #6 on: July 01, 2022, 05:01:09 PM
I’ve had a number of black clad ‘I love the ss’ mug toting asshats turn up at bolt action events with their ss army - not today sunshine out you go

If you want to play the ss because the rules give you the best stuff that’s fine but don’t come in leather coats bearing skulls and pretend you just like STG44s for your army



bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator & Event "Organizer"
  • Administrator
  • Staff Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 15380
  • Going mad, but at least going somewhere
    • Six Degrees of Radio
Reply #7 on: July 01, 2022, 05:01:27 PM
Seriously, I won't into politics and I'm certainly NOT interested in debating what the Confederate flag means to anyone else.

I'm simply answering the question asked and being honest.

Thank you for the reminder for folks. 

Sometimes we take it for granted and it's nice that we state it explicitly every so often

 :cowboy:

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++

Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Six Degrees of Radio for songs you should know by artists you should love


Sir Slash

  • Lance Sergeant
  • ****
  • Posts: 5403
  • Head of the Honorable Order of Knights Hotwings
Reply #8 on: July 01, 2022, 10:41:36 PM
Agree with the above. Neither would I take offense to someone who would play the Soviets and display the Hammer & Sickle or as Imperial Spain flying their flag over the New World. I choose to consider such symbols as historical not political.

I do find it harder and harder to play any game where the goal is to just blindly conquer and invade other factions/countries. The Total War games come to mind. Probably just cause I'm getting OLD.

Any Day is a Good Day That Doesn't Involve Too Much Work or Too Little Gaming


TTC

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 368
Reply #9 on: July 03, 2022, 02:57:06 PM
In ASL world, there is a big debate about black SS counters.  Normally, German counters are blue, and there are blue SS units.  But at some point they made black SS counters, and some people thought that went too far.  I don't have an opinion.  I would not go out of my way to play with the black counters, but I probably wouldn't object if my opponent wanted to use them, as long as he didn't have a fetish for the SS or Nazism in general.  Among my ASL battle dice, I do have some SS dice and I have used them.  I don't have a fetish for the SS, but if the scenario has some SS forces, I'll use them.  But if my opponent objected, I'd have no problem not using them.

What makes the black counters anathema to some people?

I thought it has been a long-term wargaming convention to use black to differentiate SS units from other German units, just as some games differentiate US Army from USMC units.

(But I just set up GMT's Ukraine '43 and the SS units are dark grey, vice light grey for the other German units.)



TTC

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 368
Reply #10 on: July 03, 2022, 03:00:31 PM

Also because invariably the baddies lose and I want to see if I can do better
Honestly, that's a major reason I enjoy playing the Germans, or Confederates, or Soviets in a notional WWIII--their strategic problems are much more interesting and challenging. 



BanzaiCat

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Lance Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 6561
  • Puns Puns Puns Puns
Reply #11 on: July 05, 2022, 02:18:36 PM
What makes the black counters anathema to some people?

I thought it has been a long-term wargaming convention to use black to differentiate SS units from other German units, just as some games differentiate US Army from USMC units.

I think trailrunner is referencing more the insight into the ASL group as a whole, or maybe general ASL gamer opinion. If something is blue and it's always been blue, they'd probably have good reason to question why it would need to be changed to black. Just because? Or because the player using them has some kind of fetish?

For me, I don't care. A game is a game is a game. It's cardboard and paper; it's NOT politics, it's not oppression, it's not killing wantonly or anything like that. It's a simulation, not a crime. I completely understand other's misgivings at playing a game that has potential to cause offense, and I respect that. I just don't worry about it.

For example, I remember when Greg Smith's "Amerika Bomber" came out, a few people grumbled about how they couldn't play a game where U.S. pilots were being shot down and American cities were being nuked. I get that, I really do. But, it's just a game. It's not real nuking. it's not real pilots being shot down. And as Greg mentioned time and again in his manual, the game wasn't created to scratch some fetish itch or anything; it was created to help give one insight into how truly awful this could have been, had it happened. I think some folks lose sight of that. Then again, they might not care much for exploring difficult subjects.

History is history. It's done. Ignoring it, or trying to rewrite it, does nobody any good at all. It needs to be explored and delved into, so history is not repeated. Games on these subjects, for me, generate my interest in reading more on the subject(s) at hand, so in a way, they're a gateway to learning. Even if it's about something awful and atrocious, it should be learned and not avoided because it's 'uncomfortable' or soils someone's safe space.

============================================

Solosaurus Podcast: https://solosaurus.libsyn.com/
(includes Solosaurus Plays)


Barthheart

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 4626
  • Retired curmudgeon
Reply #12 on: July 06, 2022, 08:59:16 AM
What makes the black counters anathema to some people?

I thought it has been a long-term wargaming convention to use black to differentiate SS units from other German units, just as some games differentiate US Army from USMC units.

I think trailrunner is referencing more the insight into the ASL group as a whole, or maybe general ASL gamer opinion. If something is blue and it's always been blue, they'd probably have good reason to question why it would need to be changed to black. Just because? Or because the player using them has some kind of fetish?

For me, I don't care. A game is a game is a game. It's cardboard and paper; it's NOT politics, it's not oppression, it's not killing wantonly or anything like that. It's a simulation, not a crime. I completely understand other's misgivings at playing a game that has potential to cause offense, and I respect that. I just don't worry about it.

For example, I remember when Greg Smith's "Amerika Bomber" came out, a few people grumbled about how they couldn't play a game where U.S. pilots were being shot down and American cities were being nuked. I get that, I really do. But, it's just a game. It's not real nuking. it's not real pilots being shot down. And as Greg mentioned time and again in his manual, the game wasn't created to scratch some fetish itch or anything; it was created to help give one insight into how truly awful this could have been, had it happened. I think some folks lose sight of that. Then again, they might not care much for exploring difficult subjects.

History is history. It's done. Ignoring it, or trying to rewrite it, does nobody any good at all. It needs to be explored and delved into, so history is not repeated. Games on these subjects, for me, generate my interest in reading more on the subject(s) at hand, so in a way, they're a gateway to learning. Even if it's about something awful and atrocious, it should be learned and not avoided because it's 'uncomfortable' or soils someone's safe space.

All of this. Well said B_C.

PETS - People for the Ethical Treatment of Square corners


Adam

  • Patreon Supporters
  • Trooper
  • *
  • Posts: 153
Reply #13 on: July 08, 2022, 11:29:07 AM

For me, I don't care. A game is a game is a game. It's cardboard and paper; it's NOT politics, it's not oppression, it's not killing wantonly or anything like that. It's a simulation, not a crime. I completely understand other's misgivings at playing a game that has potential to cause offense, and I respect that. I just don't worry about it.

...

History is history. It's done. Ignoring it, or trying to rewrite it, does nobody any good at all. It needs to be explored and delved into, so history is not repeated. Games on these subjects, for me, generate my interest in reading more on the subject(s) at hand, so in a way, they're a gateway to learning. Even if it's about something awful and atrocious, it should be learned and not avoided because it's 'uncomfortable' or soils someone's safe space.

As I was reading the thread, I began working up a reply in my head similar in spirit to BC's reply.  I couldn't have said it any better.