Author Topic: Future Kriegsspiels  (Read 1622 times)

panzerde

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 982
  • Paint it black
    • Cry Havoc
on: January 30, 2019, 09:26:49 AM
I'm starting this thread as a place to capture ideas for future online Kriegsspiel games. My thought here is not just to discuss what battles/campaigns to play, but to kick around ideas on systems to use.

As an example, I think for future games we might focus on an "approach to battle" game or two, where forces start closer to contact and we run only for a day or so. Stealing some scenarios from Zucker's OSG games and applying the current rules might work. This would give people newer to Kriegsspiel a shorter, more focused game to cut their teeth on, with more action earlier.

Note that I'm not suggesting we stop the longer, more campaign focused games, but rather we add some shorter games, perhaps interspersed.

We might also tie some suggested reading to the games. As an example, I'd love to have everyone playing the current campaign read Gill's books on the subject.

Jim, I think it might also be worth us doing a podcast/video stream where we talk about the mechanics and how these things work. I suspect it would really help a lot of players if they had a sense of how the combat mechanics and orders systems were handled.

I actually don't really like games.

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres


bob48

  • Smeghead.
  • Warrant Officer
  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 3828
Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 10:39:17 AM
I will certainly be interested to see where you are going with this.

“O Lord God, let me not be disgraced in my old days.”

'Gentlemen of the French Guard, Fire!'


panzerde

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 982
  • Paint it black
    • Cry Havoc
Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 11:36:10 AM
This post I found wonderfully sums up my philosophy about Kreigsspiel.

It is possible, for a player to plan the perfect strategy, to execute the strategy flawlessly, to make no mistakes and to win every single die roll, and still lose the objective on the map. In gaming, we call this "losing" and some players can take it quite hard, especially after putting in a day's work. But this is where everyone misses the point, because this is where you truly win or lose the game.

http://kriegsspiel.forumotion.net/t1925-a-word-about-kriegsspiel

I actually don't really like games.

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres


bob48

  • Smeghead.
  • Warrant Officer
  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 3828
Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 11:41:21 AM
Interesting and thought provoking.

“O Lord God, let me not be disgraced in my old days.”

'Gentlemen of the French Guard, Fire!'


mirth

  • Cardboard Mohel
  • Administrator
  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 6091
    • Armchair Dragoons
Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 11:44:43 AM
In gaming, we call this "losing" and some players can take it quite hard

I am somewhat familiar with the concept

Being able to Google shit better than your clients is a legit career skill.


Cyrano

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 721
  • AKA Kriegsspiel 6
    • Kriegsspieler
Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 07:28:40 PM
Funny you raise this.  Great minds and all that.

1:  I was thinking about clearing off the table, figuratively speaking of course, and showing folks how the game is measured and adjudicated.  I doubt it will discourage the more, creative attempts to, umm, adapt the system to personal purposes, but it might help.

2.  Rather than OSG for which there's no TTS (you know my views of VASSAL and REALLY don't like OSG on VASSAL) I was thinking about either Napoleon's Last Battles or even a Tiller game.  The advantage of the former, of course, is you're again at brigades as the main maneuver element which I think is easier for players to manage and the resolution is far simpler.

Also, having listened to this:

https://soundcloud.com/user-989538417/ep-49-krieging-the-spiel

I am reminded of the possibility of technology and *shudder* other eras.  I have played in very good Vietnam KSs based on "City of Confusion".  I liked that one so much I bought the game.

And, with all this aside, I VERY much want to make my way through all the VdA scenarios in volume I.

So, yeah, lots of gaming.

Sergeant-at-Arms - Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Negotiator of the fragile peace between Ruritania and Strakenz


Cyrano

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 721
  • AKA Kriegsspiel 6
    • Kriegsspieler
Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 07:37:30 PM
*Wonders if Brant will notice that we're set up to run twelve KSs and CPXs, four "Sergeants", and four C&C:Medieval at Origins?*

That should get it done, right?

Sergeant-at-Arms - Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Negotiator of the fragile peace between Ruritania and Strakenz


panzerde

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 982
  • Paint it black
    • Cry Havoc
Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 08:27:36 PM

1:  I was thinking about clearing off the table, figuratively speaking of course, and showing folks how the game is measured and adjudicated.  I doubt it will discourage the more, creative attempts to, umm, adapt the system to personal purposes, but it might help.

Kind of what I was thinking of with the podcast/video idea I mentioned. I know Dr. Rouy says not to provide the rules to players, and I get why, but I sense a lot of confusion over how this differs from the more conventional "god view" table top wargame. Some amount of explanation will help people who, after all, spend a fair amount of time trying to understand game mechanics. I could argue that their time would be better spent studying actual campaigns of the era, but we can cover some of that, too...


2.  Rather than OSG for which there's no TTS (you know my views of VASSAL and REALLY don't like OSG on VASSAL) I was thinking about either Napoleon's Last Battles or even a Tiller game.  The advantage of the former, of course, is you're again at brigades as the main maneuver element which I think is easier for players to manage and the resolution is far simpler.

I'm not advocating for playing the actual OSG games, rather using some of the scenarios, which tend to be just one or two day affairs, as the basis for scenarios to use with VdA.

Having said that, the central idea of running games that use brigades as maneuver elements rather than divisions is something I'm entirely behind.

Also, having listened to this:

https://soundcloud.com/user-989538417/ep-49-krieging-the-spiel

I am reminded of the possibility of technology and *shudder* other eras.  I have played in very good Vietnam KSs based on "City of Confusion".  I liked that one so much I bought the game.

Which is why I bought the 1862 KS rules last week. I suspect there'd be a lot of interest in an ACW game, and I know there are some folks around here that would enjoy something like Solferino, the Six Weeks War, or the Franco-Prussian War, all of which have interesting operational campaigns. A KS covering the First Balkan War might be interesting.

Beyond that, I'm committed to figuring out a way to really use TTS to pull off Von Reisswitz tactical-scale games.

I actually don't really like games.

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres


Metaldog

  • Jr Lancer
  • ***
  • Posts: 673
  • Central Scrutinizer
Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 11:19:13 PM

1:  I was thinking about clearing off the table, figuratively speaking of course, and showing folks how the game is measured and adjudicated.  I doubt it will discourage the more, creative attempts to, umm, adapt the system to personal purposes, but it might help.

Kind of what I was thinking of with the podcast/video idea I mentioned. I know Dr. Rouy says not to provide the rules to players, and I get why, but I sense a lot of confusion over how this differs from the more conventional "god view" table top wargame. Some amount of explanation will help people who, after all, spend a fair amount of time trying to understand game mechanics. I could argue that their time would be better spent studying actual campaigns of the era, but we can cover some of that, too...

[

That right there is what turned me off to KS.  I get that you are trying to simulate actual conditions, but,  I contend that any commander, even a bad one, would know the, "Rules of War."   Even knowing them, commanders throughout time have broken them and lost, ignored them and won.  But they knew them.  Some insight into what a player might expect from the orders they give would make games run smoother and possibly play better.  My .02

Lots of maps is a good thing - Panzerde


bob48

  • Smeghead.
  • Warrant Officer
  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 3828
Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 06:58:07 AM
The period covering the Italian wars up to and including the Franco-Prussian war would certainly be of great interest to me.

“O Lord God, let me not be disgraced in my old days.”

'Gentlemen of the French Guard, Fire!'


JasonPratt

  • Trooper
  • **
  • Posts: 340
  • Now let us see what the future will bring...
Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 08:45:21 AM
I am reminded of the possibility of technology and *shudder* other eras.  I have played in very good Vietnam KSs based on "City of Confusion".  I liked that one so much I bought the game.

Speaking of technology and KSpieling, there might be a way to KS using Command Ops 2, with players taking the role of mid-level commanders on the board. I've been pondering how to do that as a forum game once we're finished with the Grogpublic of Rome.

I am entirely in favor of being involved with a City of Confusion campaign, too.



panzerde

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 982
  • Paint it black
    • Cry Havoc
Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 08:47:59 AM
I am reminded of the possibility of technology and *shudder* other eras.  I have played in very good Vietnam KSs based on "City of Confusion".  I liked that one so much I bought the game.

Speaking of technology and KSpieling, there might be a way to KS using Command Ops 2, with players taking the role of mid-level commanders on the board. I've been pondering how to do that as a forum game once we're finished with the Grogpublic of Rome.

I am entirely in favor of being involved with a City of Confusion campaign, too.

We've used Command Ops for the Command Post Wargaming at Origins, which is essentially a KS,

I actually don't really like games.

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres


bayonetbrant

  • Arrogance Mitigator, Pilkunnussija
  • Administrator
  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 4559
  • Onward and upward
Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 11:04:50 AM
We've used Command Ops for the Command Post Wargaming at Origins, which is essentially a KS,


Where Command Ops works really well for the CPXs is that it runs in continuous time so it forces that sense of urgency on the staff.  I'm not sure how well that works for a multi-session game w/o copious use of the pause button.  At that point, if you're just playing in a turn-based game, do you need CO, or is there something else you could switch to?

Random acts of genius and other inspirations of applied violence.


JasonPratt

  • Trooper
  • **
  • Posts: 340
  • Now let us see what the future will bring...
Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 10:08:52 AM
We've used Command Ops for the Command Post Wargaming at Origins, which is essentially a KS,


Where Command Ops works really well for the CPXs is that it runs in continuous time so it forces that sense of urgency on the staff.  I'm not sure how well that works for a multi-session game w/o copious use of the pause button.  At that point, if you're just playing in a turn-based game, do you need CO, or is there something else you could switch to?

Of course! -- I'm talking about converting COps2 into a turn-based KS engine. But is there a more convenient engine for simulating just as accurately what COPs2 sims on those topics?



Cyrano

  • Junior Warrant Officer
  • Jr Lancer
  • *
  • Posts: 721
  • AKA Kriegsspiel 6
    • Kriegsspieler
Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 11:02:07 AM
May I take a moment and observe how many people -- yes, we are dozens -- are talking about the KS.

The Internet is a wonderful thing.

Oh, and I haven't completely given up the idea of having our own go at "Snappy Nappy", but I can't quite figure out how yet...

Sergeant-at-Arms - Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Negotiator of the fragile peace between Ruritania and Strakenz